Why Can't I Tolerate TRT From a Mental Standpoint?

[lemonflavor]

What supplements for cortisol are your taking? And are your trying to decrease or increase cortisol?

Decrease. I did the 4x in a day saliva test. One of the readings was pretty high. He has me taking Phosphytidylserine and Ashwaganda, the former at first by itself. I didn't notice any difference unless it has happened gradually over a few weeks. I will try stopping them at some point to see if anything happens. I do that with everything because I can't stand wasting money on supplements. On/off/on/off then see if I want to keep taking them.

I'm glad I don't have to deal with HCG.

 

[Gman86]

I often feel a bit weird/anxious/worry-about-everything on trt. I think i have narrowed it down to the hcg. Even 150iu seems to get me. Feelings of being a bit overstimulated such that it makes sleep quality go down.

It has taken me 8 months to narrow this down. Only downside of dumping it is that without it my nuts get pretty soft/small within a week or two without it.

I feel ya. I’ve been going back and forth with HCG lately too. Trying to figure out whether I feel better off or on it. Are you currently using it?

 

[Cataceous]

I feel ya. I’ve been going back and forth with HCG lately too. ...

I'm also starting to wonder if hCG is creating as many problems as it solves.

 

[Vince Carter]

I was off HCG for about 10 days when I ran out and I didn't notice anything good or bad. Just prior to that I had been tinkering for a few days with 100iu daily with my Enanthate injection 16mg. When I got my refill I went ahead with 100iu for 3 straight days and again, nothing good or bad...feels like just straight water. I think it prevents the atrophy and beside the cosmetic/outward physical appearance, I don't think HCG is worth anything, for me.

Will probably do 100iu per day for a the enxt few days and then return to ~200iu once per week.

 

[Gman86]

I'm also starting to wonder if hCG is creating as many problems as it solves.

It’s definitely something to consider. I recently went 18 days without it. I didn’t notice too much, and even if I did, it’s not conclusive of anything, due to switching to propionate recently, as well as adding NDT to my protocol at the same time. I did notice my libido drop a bit a few days after starting HCG back up the other day, but again, that doesn’t mean anything, as multiple things are in flux for me at the moment. I stopped HCG again as of yesterday, just to see if libido improves. My guess is the slight drop in libido most likely had little to do with the HCG, but I didn’t notice any negative symptoms from dropping the HCG, so I don’t mind trying to go without it again.

My personally experience with Empower’s HCG has been pretty similar to Vince Carter’s. It’s like I’m injecting water. I didn’t even notice a decrease in testicle size while I was off of the HCG. Maybe 18 days wasn’t long enough to notice a difference. But even while on 1000iu’s/ week of Empower’s HCG, my testicles are very small. They appear to me like someone’s testicles would be on no HCG at all. So I’ll be surprised if they get even smaller, but I’ll find out soon enough. Going to try and stay off HCG until my next set of labs.

 

[Cataceous]

It’s definitely something to consider. I recently went 18 days without it. I didn’t notice too much, and even if I did, it’s not conclusive of anything, due to switching to propionate recently, as well as adding NDT to my protocol at the same time. I did notice my libido drop a bit a few days after starting HCG back up the other day, but again, that doesn’t mean anything, as multiple things are in flux for me at the moment. I stopped HCG again as of yesterday, just to see if libido improves. My guess is the slight drop in libido most likely had little to do with the HCG, but I didn’t notice any negative symptoms from dropping the HCG, so I don’t mind trying to go without it again.

Could the situation with hCG vs natural LH be somewhat analogous to TRT versus natural testosterone? We've been speculating that in TRT daily propionate may yield a better simulation of nature, and perhaps variability is a useful feature. We know that serum LH is continually pulsed to high levels and then drops fairly rapidly. But serum hCG levels are relatively flat, even with daily injections. Does this behavior enhance hCG's ability to stimulate aromatization in the testes? Do other LH/hCG receptors suffer from fairly constant exposure? Food for thought, anyway.

 

[Gman86]

Could the situation with hCG vs natural LH be somewhat analogous to TRT versus natural testosterone? We've been speculating that in TRT daily propionate may yield a better simulation of nature, and perhaps variability is a useful feature. We know that serum LH is continually pulsed to high levels and then drops fairly rapidly. But serum hCG levels are relatively flat, even with daily injections. Does this behavior enhance hCG's ability to stimulate aromatization in the testes? Do other LH/hCG receptors suffer from fairly constant exposure? Food for thought, anyway.

All very much food for thought. You bring up valid questions for sure. Questions that we unfortunately will most likely never get studies done on. I just wish we knew why some guys feel great without it, and some report feeling better with it. Clearly it isn’t necessary for everyone. I just wish HCG was more black and white. I wish all guys either needed it, or they didn’t. But clearly that’s wishful thinking.

 

[Tgrappler]

I've been on TRT for about a year and it's been pretty much a horrible experience. The only time I felt decent was when I first started to use the T-cream. I ran out and crashed pretty hard, for whatever reason the doc and pharmacy messed up my order and I couldn't get the medication for about 2 - 2.5 weeks. By the time I've restarted the cream I was pretty much to the same numbers as pre-TRT, except feeling much, much worse than I have in years.

Since switching to injections (in October of last year) I don't remember even a single month where I didn't have some issues with extreme anxiety/lethargy/complete lack of motivation.

My labs keep coming back with T being over 1,000... (as high as 1700 and most recently 1400). DHT was pretty high around 125 (range 30 - 85).

Right now I do one injection of .3cc (200mg/ml T-cyp) every 5th day. After speaking with Defy this Monday, I will be lowering my dose down to .25cc ...

Tomorrow I will get new lab work and if I still see an issue with elevated numbers, I will be discounting this torture. Entirely too much money, time and life wasted on something that produces almost no positive effects. Pre-TRT I had some bad days, who doesn't?.. but nothing like what I've been going through trying to figure out the right protocol, crashing E2 (absolute hell for 2 months) and trying to manage E2 via tiny (0.125) dosage of Anastrozole, which again led to horrible anxiety and panic attacks. Additionally I started having significant ED issues. They seem to come and go... but I've never had this problem before starting TRT.

So yeah, TRT is definitely not for everyone and struggling for years to "dial in" makes no sense to me.

 

[Charliebizz]

I never did well on hcg either. But I also hated the fact of my testicles being shut down. Not for the size or anything for the fact that you are shutting down some other hormones. I don’t see how fixing one but lowering others can be good long term. That’s something I struggle understanding with trt. All the top docs talk about how important it is to backfill. Yet a good amount of men on the forums have most trouble with trt when they use things like hcg,preg,dhea and prog

 

[Charliebizz]

I've been on TRT for about a year and it's been pretty much a horrible experience. The only time I felt decent was when I first started to use the T-cream. I ran out and crashed pretty hard, for whatever reason the doc and pharmacy messed up my order and I couldn't get the medication for about 2 - 2.5 weeks. By the time I've restarted the cream I was pretty much to the same numbers as pre-TRT, except feeling much, much worse than I have in years.

Since switching to injections (in October of last year) I don't remember even a single month where I didn't have some issues with extreme anxiety/lethargy/complete lack of motivation.

My labs keep coming back with T being over 1,000... (as high as 1700 and most recently 1400). DHT was pretty high around 125 (range 30 - 85).

Right now I do one injection of .3cc (200mg/ml T-cyp) every 5th day. After speaking with Defy this Monday, I will be lowering my dose down to .25cc ...

Tomorrow I will get new lab work and if I still see an issue with elevated numbers, I will be discounting this torture. Entirely too much money, time and life wasted on something that produces almost no positive effects. Pre-TRT I had some bad days, who doesn't?.. but nothing like what I've been going through trying to figure out the right protocol, crashing E2 (absolute hell for 2 months) and trying to manage E2 via tiny (0.125) dosage of Anastrozole, which again led to horrible anxiety and panic attacks. Additionally I started having significant ED issues. They seem to come and go... but I've never had this problem before starting TRT.

So yeah, TRT is definitely not for everyone and struggling for years to "dial in" makes no sense to me.

I’m with you buddy. I did have a point in my health where I was horrible on trt or off trt. But now at this point after modifying my life style I’m very manageable being natural. However the competitor in me always wants to be great and feel great and it’s just not a reality for me. My job is demanding I don not sleep enough and I also like to enjoy life on the weekends. So I have to realize this is life. I’m going to be tired when I never get more then 6 hours of sleep and work my ass off have a 1 year old still play hockey and all that good shit.

The other thing that gets me too is despite my borderline low t all my other blood markers are perfect. Perfect glucose,a1c blood pressure is great. My bones are strong. And I’ve had low t for 11 years. I’m not saying down the road it won’t effect me but I’m going to be 37 next month and all is still well in that regard

 

[Tremonti22]

Have you ever incorporated HCG with your TRT regimen? I found that I didn’t begin to really experience the positive mood and overall well-being feelings until I did.

 

[Charliebizz]

Have you ever incorporated HCG with your TRT regimen? I found that I didn’t begin to really experience the positive mood and overall well-being feelings until I did.

I did. It caused more sides then it was worth

 

[Doug]

I would start feeling depressed after while as well and discovered that it was Anastrozole that was causing it. Once Dr. Saya removed Anastrozole from my regimen, the depression went away. I tried it again in a very small amount and got that blue feeling again. So I skip the Anastrozole and feel much better.

 

[Mr S]

I feel ya. I’ve been going back and forth with HCG lately too. Trying to figure out whether I feel better off or on it. Are you currently using it?

Have you heard of Dr Crisler HCG Protocol? He prescribes HCG up to 500mg two days before the patient’s test injection if he injects once a week. If the patient injects cypionate twice a week, Dr Crisler’s protocol is 200-250mg before each injection, never more than 500 mg per week. HCG increases testosterone as well adding to the possibility of testosterone converting to estrogen via aromatization. If one is more sensitive to aromatizaton the estradiol will make you miserable indeed. A Dr from Low T nation I believe, cautions against keeping the dosage the same when aromatizaion takes place. In other words, the T dose will be decreased and HCG probably as well. It’s rather individual, I understand, but HCG does contribute to increase testosterone so it makes sense to lower exogenous testosterone when the levels get too high and you’re miserable. HCG can be a good thing if it’s monitored within the protocol.

 

[Vince Carter]

Dr C's HCG and TRT protocol such as you refer to it here is basically ancient history and not to say that it didn't or won't work in it's own vacuum but he himself abandoned that years ago. For 1-2 years leading up to his untimely passing he had moved on to ~100iu daily with HCG.

Too if a guy is primary, the problem being the testes, which is most guys Hypo diagnosis, there's no appreciable Endo T production and further stim of the testes just results in Aromatase activity which is even harder to control in the testicular environment.

 

[joshmaximus]

All very much food for thought. You bring up valid questions for sure. Questions that we unfortunately will most likely never get studies done on. I just wish we knew why some guys feel great without it, and some report feeling better with it. Clearly it isn’t necessary for everyone. I just wish HCG was more black and white. I wish all guys either needed it, or they didn’t. But clearly that’s wishful thinking.

I wonder if 1000ius a week of hcg is too much? I wonder if 500ius a week would be better and testicle size would be gained? I am using empowers hcg and my testicles are small and lack size....not sure why??

 

[Vince Carter]

I wonder if 1000ius a week of hcg is too much? I wonder if 500ius a week would be better and testicle size would be gained? I am using empowers hcg and my testicles are small and lack size....not sure why??

There are some guys that even HCG doesn't work for the phsiycal aspect like you describe, some guys might swear the big pharma brand I think called Pregnyl works for them when the compounded product does not. It's weird.

 

[TDCNINJA]

Dr. Rob Kominiarek has spoken often about the association between the enzyme Monoamine oxidase A, the so-called 'warrior gene' and TRT.

He said that those that have this warrior gene almost always have extreme anxiety when they take testosterone.

 

[Gman86]

I wonder if 1000ius a week of hcg is too much? I wonder if 500ius a week would be better and testicle size would be gained? I am using empowers hcg and my testicles are small and lack size....not sure why??

Ya you make a valid point. Maybe after guys using 510-1000 iu’s might get a slight improvement over guys only using 500iu’s, but maybe there are negatives to the increased dose, that outweigh the slight benefit(s). Maybe around 500iu’s, for some, might be a good balance of positive benefits, and negative side effects.

I have also been on Empower, at 1000iu’s per week, for a long time now, and my testicles are very tiny and mushy. I actually stopped using HCG about 3 weeks ago, and my testicles look and feel identical to when I was using the HCG. It might be too early to tell, but just seems like empower’s HCG did nothing for me. Definitely had no effect on testosterone and DHEA-S levels, obviously verified through blood work.

Pregnyl, on the other hand, at least for me, had my testicles at least double the size they are now, boosted my testosterone levels quite a bit and almost doubled my DHEA-S level. While on the same dose of HCG that I was on with Empower’s HCG. Penis also hung better flaccid on pregnyl. This is just my personal experience between the two, and may be very different than why other guys experience. Just reporting what I personally noticed.

 

[Appassionato]

Dr. Rob Kominiarek has spoken often about the association between the enzyme Monoamine oxidase A, the so-called 'warrior gene' and TRT.

He said that those that have this warrior gene almost always have extreme anxiety when they take testosterone.

Every human being has that gene, which is divided in 3 different alleles, as shown in the screenshot. What differs is the possible mutation of these alleles, which leads to the upregulation or downregulation of the relative pathway.

If he really said so, it's just another doctor that knows basically nothing about genomic mutations. Beware of who you're listening to, doctors are not God.