What is the Lowest Dose Protocol That You Find Works Long Term?

[sh1973]

I absolutely agree with lower dosing and even with shbg in the 70s a dose of 60mg per week once weekly for me is best with cypionate. When I was doing between 80-120mg per week I never slept more than four hours a night even with ambien. Dropping the dose below 70mg per week cured insomnia and took away all side effects. I’ve been at this a decade and have learned the hard way, less is better.

 

[Novaman]

I get what your saying joe. But what happens like in my case. I knew nothing about trt and sleep issues. Until I raised my t dose and it was too high for me and I was having many issues including sleep issues. And when I reduced the dose it went away? I believe in psychosomatic issues 100%. But that doesn’t mean it’s everyone’s issue.
I know when my low t and cortisol issues started I never knew a thing about them. However when I started learning about them I payed way more attention to them and let them bother me more. But if I stopped thinking about them I wouldn’t be cured. But it made my life easier.

This is exactly what has happened with me.

 

[Charliebizz]

I don’t what causes your ailments honestly. I could just relate to the sleep issues.
The way psychosomatic issues work you would expect some or complete relief when you believe the solution has been found.
The kind I’ve dealt with is where you brain gives you a physical ailment to focus on instead of the mental anguish going on inside your head. It’s generally called TMS. Everything worked temporarily for me. Then back to the same pains. There was never anything physically wrong with me. Dr Gerry Sarno discovered this. if it interests you I recommend his books.

are you still on trt ?

 

[Indy57]

40mg EOD and .25 arimidex EOD puts my TT at 1150 SHBG at 30and E2 at 36.i would trydaily or EOD and see if you feel better!

 

[Wolverine]

Others have stated this: Dose off of the free T levels, not total T. Depending on your SHBG levels, total level may look good but your free t may be high or low.

 

[Vman]

I used to worry a out not sleeping well. Waking up through the night or worrying that I tossed and turned the whole night.
I was sure it was my TRT bc it started soon after upping the dose. Felt great otherwise. Even noticed I wasn’t as tired as I thought I should be.

The problem went away. Permanently. I stopped worrying about it and wrote it off.
That’s called a psychosomatic symptom. It’s real, but only bc you believe it to be.

Worrying and thinking to solve a perceived problem caused the lack of sleep. If I react that way to other things in my life I have the same tossing and turning problem again.

I think this can help for some people and I'm happy to hear it worked for you.

That said, I think the majority of the people that have sleeping issues on TRT are having them because of other physiological issues (too high a dose, low iron, thyroid problems, adrenals, neurotransmitters, etc.).

For me, when I was on way too high a dose (210mg/week) I had full blown anxiety. Never had anxiety or insomnia before. Heart was going crazy and there was no way I could get even a second of sleep. I think many people that have too high of a dose have a mild version of that experience. They might have very mild anxiety, mild heart palps or insomnia.

The not worrying so much about sleep is great, but if you have 5 cups of coffee right before bed, you're simply not going to be able to sleep. I think high or maybe even moderate doses of testosterone are essentially that for some people.

 

[Charliebizz]

I think this can help for some people and I'm happy to hear it worked for you.

That said, I think the majority of the people that have sleeping issues on TRT are having them because of other physiological issues (too high a dose, low iron, thyroid problems, adrenals, neurotransmitters, etc.).

For me, when I was on way too high a dose (210mg/week) I had full blown anxiety. Never had anxiety or insomnia before. Heart was going crazy and there was no way I could get even a second of sleep. I think many people that have too high of a dose have a mild version of that experience. They might have very mild anxiety, mild heart palps or insomnia.

The not worrying so much about sleep is great, but if you have 5 cups of coffee right before bed, you're simply not going to be able to sleep. I think high or maybe even moderate doses of testosterone are essentially that for some people.

100% my experience also. Except my dose was 120mg/weekly. Back before I had any health issues I started having trouble sleeping. And the dummy I am I was drinking green tea at 7 pm or later. The minute I stopped I went back to sleeping normal.

my question to joe is why is sleep psychosomatic on trt but needing trt itself isn’t. 100% get it if it’s something beat in your head before you start but for me I knew nothing about sleep issues and trt when I started. Same with snoring. If I’m on two high a dose I would snore my wife would tell me. I went for 2 sleep studies off t. No apnea no snoring. On anything over 80mg of t I snore like crazy.

 

[MRX]

I'm close to giving up.

In my continued quest to get "dialed in" over my 4+ years on TRT, I'm finally down to few final options before I throw in the towel

Through trial and error over time I've found that HCG, AI, and other supplements that docs have put me on make me feel horrible, and higher doses of Test Cyp (140 mg a week split in 2 doses) causes my hematocrit to rise to levels that causes concern for my doc, elevated heart rates, and causes sleep issues.

I'm trying Test Cyp doses of 120 mg a week split in 2, and that seems to keep the hematocrit from rising, but I still get elevated heart rates and also sleep issues.

I've been trying my altered protocols after clearing my system for 1-2 weeks and find that my issues develop after a 1.5 to 2 weeks. Is this because I need to let my levels stabilize first?

Anyone happy on doses below 120 mg a week? At this point I think that is all I have left to try.

My Lord 120mg week would put my E2 skyhigh

Why did you start out with a high dose ?

96 mg per week (2 x 46 mg with an insulin spike) puts me at high normal T range and E2 in low 20s
I add 40 mg weekly of masteron enanthate

 

[Cataceous]

My Lord 120mg week would put my E2 skyhigh

Why did you start out with a high dose ?

96 mg per week (2 x 46 mg with an insulin spike) puts me at high normal T range and E2 in low 20s
I add 40 mg weekly of masteron enanthate

What benefits do you get from the Masteron over TRT alone?

 

[Pringle]

So much of the challenge is the sheer time and process it takes to figure out what works for each of us. Every protocol change is a 6-8 week window for results and adjustment. I wish I would have started lower dose T and worked my way up vs now titrating down to manage sides. Live and learn.....

 

[Novaman]

My Lord 120mg week would put my E2 skyhigh

Why did you start out with a high dose ?

96 mg per week (2 x 46 mg with an insulin spike) puts me at high normal T range and E2 in low 20s
I add 40 mg weekly of masteron enanthate

When I started TRT 4+ reads ago, my doc put me on 200 mg of Test Cyp a week split in 2 doses (along with HCG and Anastrozole) Needless to say I had horrible side effects. I eventually convinced him to let me drop to 180 mg Test Cyp. and my sides continued.

The Doc was an idiot so I left him and started with another Doc who put me on 160 mg Test Cyp a week plus HCG and AI. I continued to have issues so we dropped it to 140 mg a week. I continued to experiment and dropped it to 120 mg a week and found that my Hematocrit stopped climbing, but I still have other issues.

That doc ceased to operate his clinic so I decided to make one last try before giving up. I did some research and decided to try Defy. They actually wanted to start me back at 140 mg. but I told them about the issues I've had so when I asked if 120 mg would be a fair starting point they said OK. I figured possible the other meds they wanted to try (Lyothyronine, DHEA) in conjunction with the HCG, AI might make a difference, but all it did was give me horrible sides. In fact at this point Ive determined that HCG, Anastrozole, Lyothyronine, and DHEA all make me feel horrible.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Note that 120mg per week is still almost double what some of us use. For example, I use in the 70-90 range although I recently added in some cream so I'm now a but higher than that, but I had no sides at 70-90.

 

[Novaman]

Thanks to all for their responses. This thread has been extremely helpful.

For most all this time I have relied on my TRT docs to prescribe the proper dosage for me and help me get dialed in. I figured that since they are the experts they should know how best to do TRT. It is clear now that their approach is probably not the best approach to take.

I have decided to give TRT a chance by starting at a lower dose and titrating upward. Its funny because I always thought 120 mg Test Cyp would be a low dose already when I consider the fact that all three of the Dr's I have used had me in the 140-200 mg per week range.

It looks like the lowest dose guys are feeling good at is 60 mg a week based on the small sample size on this thread, with many guys in the 70-100 range.

I started yesterday with a 20 mg injection and won't be using an AI or HCG. I will do the injections EOD to get to 60 mg a week. I will see how I feel and consider making changes after a month.

So far the first 24 hours have been good. We shall see.

 

[sh1973]

Like I told you in my reply, I only can tolerate 60mg per week and honestly I think i could go down to 40mg and still feel good. I'm 5'9" 175lbs not huge by any means but not small either. As I said my shbg sits in the 70s so in my case, high dosing for shbg goes out the window. My previous urologist stated he had a couple patients on 40mg per week for several years that were happy as hell. TRT is very subjective as we all know but I still say if more patients started lower and worked up slowly there'd be more success with TRT.

 

[Vman]

It looks like the lowest dose guys are feeling good at is 60 mg a week based on the small sample size on this thread, with many guys in the 70-100 range.

20mg EOD is actually 70mg/week. To calculate weekly dosing when on EOD just use 2 weeks and divide by 2. So for 20mg EOD, 20mg x 7 doses = 140mg / 2 weeks = 70mg/week.

 

[Novaman]

20mg EOD is actually 70mg/week. To calculate weekly dosing when on EOD just use 2 weeks and divide by 2. So for 20mg EOD, 20mg x 7 doses = 140mg / 2 weeks = 70mg/week.

Thanks- yeah I was thinking of skipping a day to keep at 3 doses a week. Perhaps sticking to an EOD schedule might be better?

 

[Vman]

Thanks- yeah I was thinking of skipping a day to keep at 3 doses a week. Perhaps sticking to an EOD schedule might be better?

I've heard some people that do 3 doses a week. I would prefer EOD as it's easier to remember when to inject. At the end of the day I don't think it matters much.

 

[Coopsdaddy]

80mg per week split every 3.5 days seems to work the best for me,100 per week was my initial prescribed dose but i seemed to have sleep issues.
No other prescriptions

 

[Larry P]

I am doing 40mg every five days of Cypionate. Feel great no side effects.

 

[SilverSurfer]

Thanks for the response.

I've been trying to get dialed in for 4+ years. I actually went off TRT 15 months ago for 3 months but went back on because I truly want it to work and I know I hadn't exhausted all protocol options.

I have been under a Dr's care the entire time I've been on treatment and have been put on "standard prevailing" protocols, which the docs have been altering over time to try and get me dialed in. It can be a challenge to give things time to see if symptoms stabilize, because you can spend your entire time waiting for something that never comes.

By "altered Protocols" I meant that rather than take everything the doc threw out at me at once (he put me on Test Cyp, AI, HCG, DHEA, and Lyothyronine), I decided it would be wiser to add in one drug at a time and see how it effects me.

I do know the medical literature supports the notion that TRT does increase resting heart rates, and I also know that the medical literature supports the notion that sleep quality and heart rate (and/or the amount of change in the heart rate) are interconnected.

Really? It lowers mine. Even in the gym doing cardio it takes a lot to get my heart rate above 105. My resting rate is now 59 to 61.