nakedjoe99
Member
You do daily injections with a 25G? Why don't you like insulin pins? Did you also have a problem with water retention?
Water Retention and Rapid Weight Gain Caused by Testosterone
- Thread starter ryn996
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- protocol water retention
3 times a week. Don’t even feel it. I don’t like insulin pens because it’s. Hassle filling them. Back filling is a pain and injecting with the same needle you draw from sucks because the needle is 50% duller after going through the rubber top. That’s just me. Many here don’t mind.
Yes on the water retention. It started when I doubled my dose from 50mg to 100mg, one shot per week. Dr gave me 12.5mg HTZ, it helped a little, not much. Went from one shot weekly to two, and eventually three Just to keep the levels more steady. Today I took a lasix. I’ll have to see how it does. Still holding more water than I should. I know when I go to almost no carbs for a few days the water falls off, but it’s not a sustainable way long term.
Vince
Super Moderator
I use testosterone cypionate, I'm sure any ester would be fine.
nakedjoe99
Member
Great! Thanks for the advice, everyone. I'll keep you posted on my progress and if I see any changes.
Rock H. Johnson
Active Member
There is some anecdotal evidence that longer esters cause more water retention. My personal experience with short and long esters, since I started a Test combi which contains a Decanoate Test, I definitely lost definition, slightly thicker ankles and look a little doughy.....
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nakedjoe99
Member
Are you also doing daily injections?
Rock H. Johnson
Active Member
Sure, thats a bit of a misnomer as it is always an individual reaction, there is no one size fits all. Only issue is that during these ester changes my diet has not changed whatsoever, I have been working out for the last 30+ years, I have pretty much learned what works on this body and what not and when in terms of nutrition, supplements, etc. I am 6"2, 215lbs with 9%BF, I am aware of changes like bloat. I definitely saw a difference like others here have reported while on T prop or T Cyp or now having a T dec in the mix.
And lets not forget heart condition, always a possibility in TRT that edema in the lower extremities and abdomen can be an indication of a heart condition.
I do not understand why you always try to downplay other peoples experiences or individual needs like with the AI´s, but now "Its all an individual reaction"? TRT brings risks with it and any indication could be that, nothing to fret about but this is not a game, its peoples health. This forum is intended to inform eachother on the possible side-effects or problems which could occur while on TRT.
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Its only my .02 on the topic of Test C not causing bloat. Testosterone is testosterone. Esthers and their half lives plus the carrier oil can have some effects on the body, and dosed correctly our endocrine system knows what to do with it. This may take some time on some people. As for AI, well that stuff is no good. I do wonder about how much of it Ronnie Coleman had to take in order to lower his estrogen. 9% bodyfat is impressive. I hang out around 11%, Im sure its the few beers here and there that hold me back.
Rock H. Johnson
Active Member
I do agree on the AI especially inhibiting conversion in the brain etc, scary. Could be the wheat, yes, how do you actually feel on alcohol? I tried it but it works really weird on me while on TRT. I stopped drinking 4 years ago and last October while in the UK I tried a bit and I was out of control...lol It does not feel right to me on TRT.
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Ya know, drinking beer is something that can impact things while on TRT. Ive been a lighter drinker since I started TRT. Im not able to drink like I used to, and I prefer it that way. TRT has made me healthier so the only time I drink beer is when I work on my project car, and lately Ive had a lot of time
nakedjoe99
Member
UPDATE: It's been approximately 2 months since I started daily injections of testosterone cypionate. I've noticed very little, if any, change in water retention issues. I still need to take furosemide to keep the water under control.
PhantomFear
Member
It's caused by a poor progesterone:estrogen ratio. This isn't something that can be assessed using serum estradiol, as estradiol is not an endocrine, but a paracrine hormone. This means that is is produced and used in it's tissue of origin, meaning serum values are largely useless.
Jefcoate, C.R., et al. Plasma Estrogen Does Not Reflect Tissue Concentration of Estrogen. J Natl Cancer Inst Monogr. 2000;(27):95-112.
"However, breast cancer tissue E2 levels are 10-fold to 50-fold higher in postmenopausal women than predicted from plasma levels. Consequently, factors must be present to alter breast tissue E2 levels independently of plasma concentrations"
Akerlund, M. et al. Comparison of plasma and myometrial tissue concentrations of estradiol-17 beta and progesterone in nonpregnant women. Contraception. 1981 Apr;23(4):447-55.
"The tissue/plasma ratio of E2 ranged from 1.45 to 20.36 with very high values in early follicular phase and the lowest in mid-luteal phase"
Batra, S., et al. Interrelations between plasma and tissue concentrations of 17 beta-oestradiol and progesterone during human pregnancy. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1979 Dec;11(6):603-10.
"The general conclusion to be drawn from the present study is the lack of correspondence between the plasma concentrations and the tissue concentrations of female sex steroids during pregnancy."
I understand these studies are in women, but the general concept of serum estradiol being a poor representation of tissue concentrations is just as applicable to men. Perhaps even more so, as we rely almost solely on peripheral conversion since we don't have ovaries.
Get your progesterone tested. HPTA shutdown causes impaired choesterol -> preg conversion, and thus low progesterone, whilst simultaneously increasing systemic estrogen due to large amounts of exogenous testosterone. The end product is impaired progesterone and raised estrogenic activity, which downregluates the overall metabolic rate of the cell, thus causing edema - a manifestation seen in all stressed tissues. No amount of estrogen control, dht, ai, or diuretics will fix it if your prog is low from hpta shutdown. Progesterone's regulatory role over aldosterone which is lost if it becomes deficient also plays a big role too.
Anecdotally, I had insane water retention on TRT, and my progesterone always came back at undetectable levels of < 0.14 nmol/L. The retention melts away everytime I come off, and my progesterone levels sit ~1.2 nmol/L.
Jefcoate, C.R., et al. Plasma Estrogen Does Not Reflect Tissue Concentration of Estrogen. J Natl Cancer Inst Monogr. 2000;(27):95-112.
"However, breast cancer tissue E2 levels are 10-fold to 50-fold higher in postmenopausal women than predicted from plasma levels. Consequently, factors must be present to alter breast tissue E2 levels independently of plasma concentrations"
Akerlund, M. et al. Comparison of plasma and myometrial tissue concentrations of estradiol-17 beta and progesterone in nonpregnant women. Contraception. 1981 Apr;23(4):447-55.
"The tissue/plasma ratio of E2 ranged from 1.45 to 20.36 with very high values in early follicular phase and the lowest in mid-luteal phase"
Batra, S., et al. Interrelations between plasma and tissue concentrations of 17 beta-oestradiol and progesterone during human pregnancy. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1979 Dec;11(6):603-10.
"The general conclusion to be drawn from the present study is the lack of correspondence between the plasma concentrations and the tissue concentrations of female sex steroids during pregnancy."
I understand these studies are in women, but the general concept of serum estradiol being a poor representation of tissue concentrations is just as applicable to men. Perhaps even more so, as we rely almost solely on peripheral conversion since we don't have ovaries.
Get your progesterone tested. HPTA shutdown causes impaired choesterol -> preg conversion, and thus low progesterone, whilst simultaneously increasing systemic estrogen due to large amounts of exogenous testosterone. The end product is impaired progesterone and raised estrogenic activity, which downregluates the overall metabolic rate of the cell, thus causing edema - a manifestation seen in all stressed tissues. No amount of estrogen control, dht, ai, or diuretics will fix it if your prog is low from hpta shutdown. Progesterone's regulatory role over aldosterone which is lost if it becomes deficient also plays a big role too.
Anecdotally, I had insane water retention on TRT, and my progesterone always came back at undetectable levels of < 0.14 nmol/L. The retention melts away everytime I come off, and my progesterone levels sit ~1.2 nmol/L.
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nakedjoe99
Member
I've not had progesterone test. Assuming it is low, how would it be raised?
Nelson Vergel
Founder, ExcelMale.com
I don't agree.
Sodium retention is the main cause of water retention.
www.testosteronewisdom.com
www.excelmale.com
Here are excerpts from an interesting paper:
"This is the first controlled study demonstrating that testosterone increases extracellular water ECW. Previous data concerning the effects of testosterone on plasma volume (19, 20) and urinary sodium excretion (18, 21) are limited and conflicting. The underlying mechanism is unknown, but several possibilities exist. Testosterone could act directly on the kidney, because androgen receptors are expressed in renal tubules (31). There is evidence that androgens stimulate the expression of the angiotensinogen gene in the kidney (32, 33). Therefore, androgens could activate the local renal RAAS to stimulate sodium and water retention through an autocrine or paracrine mechanism (34). The epithelial sodium channel plays an important role in the sodium balance, as demonstrated by genetic abnormalities in its activity, such as in Liddle's syndrome (35). It has recently been reported that androgens increase mRNA expression of the α-subunit of the epithelial sodium channel in a human renal cell line (36), providing a potential mechanism of sodium and water retention by testosterone.
Plasma aldosterone Aldo levels fell significantly during testosterone treatment, whereas a modest fall, which failed to reach significance, occurred during GH treatment. During combined treatments, a significant fall in Aldo was also observed. The uniform trend toward a fall in Aldo levels observed with single and combined treatments suggests an adaptive response to ECW expansion. The observation that the fall in Aldo was greater in the presence of testosterone suggests that additional androgen-mediated mechanisms are probably involved. Androgen receptors have been identified in human adrenocortical cells and appear to exert an inhibitory influence. In vitro studies have demonstrated that testosterone reduced the proliferation of human adrenal adenoma and adrenocortical cancer cell lines (38). It is possible that testosterone directly suppresses Aldo biosynthesis or secretion, but this remains to be demonstrated.
More on aldosterone
The effects of testosterone on the volume and distribution of ECW could theoretically occur secondary to aromatization to estrogen in peripheral tissues. Estrogen may cause fluid retention through reduction of the plasma antidiuretic hormone (arginine vasopressin)-plasma osmolality set point (39, 40) or stimulating the synthesis of hepatic angiotensinogen (41), enhancing the overall activity of RAAS and leading to sodium retention. However, this postulate is not supported by the observation that urinary sodium excretion is increased during oral contraceptive use (42) or that the plasma renin concentration is reduced in women receiving estrogen treatment (43). Moreover, estrogen reduces the plasma renin concentration, the activity of angiotensin-converting enzyme, and the Aldo response to angiotensin II (44, 45). These actions of estrogen putatively generated from aromatization of androgens could explain the slight reduction in plasma Aldo levels in response to testosterone in our study." Source
I notice that I hold more water when I eat higher sodium foods, drink alcohol, and skip the gym for more than 3 days. Higher simple carb intake also worsens water retention. I weigh myself every morning. If I am not careful, I can gain 3-4 pounds of water in 1 or 2 days. Not drinking enough water also makes the body retain water. My kidney function (eGFR) is good (80).
I think decreasing sodium and sweets intake, increasing water consumption, and doing some cardio are ways to control water weight. If it gets bad, the use of a diuretic only once can stabilize this issue during days were I go off the wagon at my family's parties.
Sodium retention is the main cause of water retention.
High Blood Pressure and Water Retention on Testosterone ( TRT ) | Testosterone Wisdom
TRT can cause water retention and high blood pressure during the first weeks of treatment. This article mentions ways to deal with that issue
www.testosteronewisdom.com
Testosterone increases water retention in hypogonadal men by affecting kidneys
The effects of growth hormone (GH) on sodium retention and extracellular fluid (ECF) are well established. The mechanisms are not clear but are thought to involve the GH/IGF-I (insulin-like growth factor I) axis. Men and women differ in their ECF and this contributes to men’s higher fat-free...
www.excelmale.com
Here are excerpts from an interesting paper:
"This is the first controlled study demonstrating that testosterone increases extracellular water ECW. Previous data concerning the effects of testosterone on plasma volume (19, 20) and urinary sodium excretion (18, 21) are limited and conflicting. The underlying mechanism is unknown, but several possibilities exist. Testosterone could act directly on the kidney, because androgen receptors are expressed in renal tubules (31). There is evidence that androgens stimulate the expression of the angiotensinogen gene in the kidney (32, 33). Therefore, androgens could activate the local renal RAAS to stimulate sodium and water retention through an autocrine or paracrine mechanism (34). The epithelial sodium channel plays an important role in the sodium balance, as demonstrated by genetic abnormalities in its activity, such as in Liddle's syndrome (35). It has recently been reported that androgens increase mRNA expression of the α-subunit of the epithelial sodium channel in a human renal cell line (36), providing a potential mechanism of sodium and water retention by testosterone.
Plasma aldosterone Aldo levels fell significantly during testosterone treatment, whereas a modest fall, which failed to reach significance, occurred during GH treatment. During combined treatments, a significant fall in Aldo was also observed. The uniform trend toward a fall in Aldo levels observed with single and combined treatments suggests an adaptive response to ECW expansion. The observation that the fall in Aldo was greater in the presence of testosterone suggests that additional androgen-mediated mechanisms are probably involved. Androgen receptors have been identified in human adrenocortical cells and appear to exert an inhibitory influence. In vitro studies have demonstrated that testosterone reduced the proliferation of human adrenal adenoma and adrenocortical cancer cell lines (38). It is possible that testosterone directly suppresses Aldo biosynthesis or secretion, but this remains to be demonstrated.
More on aldosterone
The effects of testosterone on the volume and distribution of ECW could theoretically occur secondary to aromatization to estrogen in peripheral tissues. Estrogen may cause fluid retention through reduction of the plasma antidiuretic hormone (arginine vasopressin)-plasma osmolality set point (39, 40) or stimulating the synthesis of hepatic angiotensinogen (41), enhancing the overall activity of RAAS and leading to sodium retention. However, this postulate is not supported by the observation that urinary sodium excretion is increased during oral contraceptive use (42) or that the plasma renin concentration is reduced in women receiving estrogen treatment (43). Moreover, estrogen reduces the plasma renin concentration, the activity of angiotensin-converting enzyme, and the Aldo response to angiotensin II (44, 45). These actions of estrogen putatively generated from aromatization of androgens could explain the slight reduction in plasma Aldo levels in response to testosterone in our study." Source
I notice that I hold more water when I eat higher sodium foods, drink alcohol, and skip the gym for more than 3 days. Higher simple carb intake also worsens water retention. I weigh myself every morning. If I am not careful, I can gain 3-4 pounds of water in 1 or 2 days. Not drinking enough water also makes the body retain water. My kidney function (eGFR) is good (80).
I think decreasing sodium and sweets intake, increasing water consumption, and doing some cardio are ways to control water weight. If it gets bad, the use of a diuretic only once can stabilize this issue during days were I go off the wagon at my family's parties.
nakedjoe99
Member
Finally found out what is causing my water retention. So, I saw a nephrologist about my issue. A 24 hour urine collection yielded proteinuria. Did two collections, two weeks apart and go the same result. Total daily protein leakage of 5343 mg/24hr. Appointment tomorrow to set up a kidney biopsy. Not looking too good for me. Wish I caught this sooner....
Nelson Vergel
Founder, ExcelMale.com
The best way to treat your issue is to bring your blood pressure under control. What is your blood pressure ?
nakedjoe99
Member
Yesterday my blood pressure was 128/68. Biopsy is scheduled for next Friday, 8/21.
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