Very long term TRT (20+ years) - risk of liver cancer?

[TestTube]

I've been on TRT for about 15 years. I keep my total testosterone on the low end, around 400 (I couldn't get my T over 150 before TRT). This evening I was reading this study: S2577 Development of Liver Cancers as an Unexpected... : Official journal of the American College of Gastroenterology | ACG
Although I barely understand what is being said, it got me thinking, what are the risks of very long term TRT (15, 20 or more years) with regards to liver cancer?
I don't understand the numbers in that study. But how many have been on TRT for more than 15 or 20 years? Any liver problems? Just a general question. I don't know whatever happened to KSMan.

I did IM from 2006-2009. Went off for a bit. Tried gels from 2010-11. Went off. Been doing subq since 2012 (3x a week). Thinking about trying transscrotal cream for a bit. I'm 47 now, but those two guys who got liver cancer in the study above were 55 and 56. Scary.

P.S. I used to be a member of peaktestosterone but I see that site is gone, sadly.

 

[Systemlord]

That study uses words like “potential“ and more information is needed as in no causation found. I wouldn’t put much stock in this study because too many unknowns, maybes or potential risk.

There are studies show TRT indirectly improves liver function and all other data points to overwhelming positive health benefits of TRT.

I see little difference between a natty man with high testosterone and a man on TRT with high testosterone.

Nelson Vergel has been on TRT for 28 years.

 

[TestTube]

That study uses words like “potential“ and more information is needed as in no causation found. I wouldn’t put much stock in this study because too many unknowns, maybes or potential risk.

There are studies show TRT indirectly improves liver function and all other data points to overwhelming positive health benefits of TRT.

I see little difference between a natty man with high testosterone and a man on TRT with high testosterone.

Nelson Vergel has been on TRT for 28 years.

Right, Nelson is going strong. I know a handful who have done TRT 20-30 years, also doing good. But most of the people I know never went crazy with danazolm, anadrol, dbol and other stuff. I'd guess those who used TONS of 17α-alkylated steroids in the past are more likely to be on TRT at the time they might be found to have liver problems. Perhaps that's part of the connection. I know of one person on this forum (won't name him) who did 17α-alkylated stuff in the 70s and got liver cancer later (anecdotally). He is doing ok now. Here's a more detailed hepatoxicity paper: Androgenic Steroids - LiverTox - NCBI Bookshelf
It is mainly talking about danazolm, anadrol, dbol but also regular testosterone.

 

[Systemlord]

Thinking about trying transscrotal cream for a bit.

If you feel optimal, if it ain’t broke….

Here’s that study -> Testosterone treatment improves liver function and reduces cardiovascular risk: A long-term prospective study

 

[TestTube]

I've been on TRT for about 15 years. I keep my total testosterone on the low end, around 400 (I couldn't get my T over 150 before TRT). This evening I was reading this study: S2577 Development of Liver Cancers as an Unexpected... : Official journal of the American College of Gastroenterology | ACG
Although I barely understand what is being said, it got me thinking, what are the risks of very long term TRT (15, 20 or more years) with regards to liver cancer?
I don't understand the numbers in that study. But how many have been on TRT for more than 15 or 20 years? Any liver problems? Just a general question. I don't know whatever happened to KSMan.

I did IM from 2006-2009. Went off for a bit. Tried gels from 2010-11. Went off. Been doing subq since 2012 (3x a week). Thinking about trying transscrotal cream for a bit. I'm 47 now, but those two guys who got liver cancer in the study above were 55 and 56. Scary.

P.S. I used to be a member of peaktestosterone but I see that site is gone, sadly.

Update: I have been trying scrotal T cream for two or three weeks and I feel like complete shit. I'm dizzy, feel tired (like I could pass out), I'm super weak, and overall I just feel terrible. I wanted this to work, because I was tired of needles after 20 years. But after feeling like I have for the past couple of weeks, I'd be happy to have a needle every day if it means feeling better. But why isn't this working for me? 23andme says I'm a "super hyper metabolizer" - could that be why? Just checked my DHT, E2, T, and a few other things the other day before giving up on the cream. I don't have the results yet.

 

[Systemlord]

But why isn't this working for me?

The creams don’t work because, one doesn’t absorb enough or the rapid rise and fall of hormones, which can make some men feel on edge.

If it’s not working by now, it probably never will. I mean this is got to be the worst possible response to the cream to date that I can recall.

 

[TestTube]

The creams don’t work because, one doesn’t absorb enough or the rapid rise and fall of hormones, which can make some men feel on edge.

If it’s not working by now, it probably never will. I mean this is got to be the worst possible response to the cream to date that I can recall.

This happened in 2007 when I tried it from a different compounding pharmacy, but that had chrysin in it, and I thought maybe that was the problem. But this is just Versa base and T. I feel miserable.

 

[Cataceous]

Aside from having absorption issues, transdermal products might skew the ratio of androgenic to estrogenic activity. It depends in part on the amounts of 5α-reductase and aromatase in the skin. Scrotal application in particular is notorious for efficient conversion of testosterone to DHT. DHT is anti-estrogenic, reducing aromatization and also acting through competitive inhibition at estrogen receptors.

By the way, welcome to ExcelMale from another PeakTestosterone refugee! It's too bad we lost that site, but ExcelMale is also a great place to be.

 

[tareload]

Aside from having absorption issues, transdermal products might skew the ratio of androgenic to estrogenic activity. It depends in part on the amounts of 5α-reductase and aromatase in the skin. Scrotal application in particular is notorious for efficient conversion of testosterone to DHT. DHT is anti-estrogenic, reducing aromatization and also acting through competitive inhibition at estrogen receptors.

By the way, welcome to ExcelMale from another PeakTestosterone refugee! It's too bad we lost that site, but ExcelMale is also a great place to be.

So all of the posts over there were lost if I read correctly. That is too bad. And it is said..."nothing on the internet is ever truly gone". Murphy sure knows how to show up everywhere at the exact right/wrong time.

 

[Cataceous]

So all of the posts over there were lost if I read correctly. That is too bad. And it is said..."nothing on the internet is ever truly gone". Murphy sure knows how to show up everywhere at the exact right/wrong time.

It seems odd that Curt Moyer's widow would stop cooperating with Nelson and leave the site crashed. If the hosting account is closed then more recent forum activity is lost. I think a few of the content pages are in the Internet archives. In theory I have a forum backup from January 2020. After that date the backup function stopped working. I haven't yet tried to access the backup database to see if the information is there.

 

[BigTex]

I've been on TRT for about 15 years. I keep my total testosterone on the low end, around 400 (I couldn't get my T over 150 before TRT). This evening I was reading this study: S2577 Development of Liver Cancers as an Unexpected... : Official journal of the American College of Gastroenterology | ACG
Although I barely understand what is being said, it got me thinking, what are the risks of very long term TRT (15, 20 or more years) with regards to liver cancer?
I don't understand the numbers in that study. But how many have been on TRT for more than 15 or 20 years? Any liver problems? Just a general question. I don't know whatever happened to KSMan.

I did IM from 2006-2009. Went off for a bit. Tried gels from 2010-11. Went off. Been doing subq since 2012 (3x a week). Thinking about trying transscrotal cream for a bit. I'm 47 now, but those two guys who got liver cancer in the study above were 55 and 56. Scary.

P.S. I used to be a member of peaktestosterone but I see that site is gone, sadly.

So they wrote this paper using 3 cases which they never did directly tie to anabolic steroids use. Not very convincing. In fact, the author even writes, cases involving hepatocellular carcinoma (HCC) development in patients on androgen therapy or anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) are few and far between.

I have used these substances now for 43 years and counting. Most of it was not TRT. No liver problems.

 

[TestTube]

I've been on TRT for about 15 years. I keep my total testosterone on the low end, around 400 (I couldn't get my T over 150 before TRT). This evening I was reading this study: S2577 Development of Liver Cancers as an Unexpected... : Official journal of the American College of Gastroenterology | ACG
Although I barely understand what is being said, it got me thinking, what are the risks of very long term TRT (15, 20 or more years) with regards to liver cancer?
I don't understand the numbers in that study. But how many have been on TRT for more than 15 or 20 years? Any liver problems? Just a general question. I don't know whatever happened to KSMan.

I did IM from 2006-2009. Went off for a bit. Tried gels from 2010-11. Went off. Been doing subq since 2012 (3x a week). Thinking about trying transscrotal cream for a bit. I'm 47 now, but those two guys who got liver cancer in the study above were 55 and 56. Scary.

P.S. I used to be a member of peaktestosterone but I see that site is gone, sadly.

I just got my test results in. Just 25mg of scrotal T cream caused my DHT to shoot up to 181, over the range of 12-65. E2 was only 13 (<= 29), serum T was only 292, and Free T was 67.3 (35-155) LC/MS-MS. With my DHT being way over the top range, I wonder if that was somehow making me feel dizzy with brain fog and overall feeling like shit. Or perhaps it was my blood sugar, or like Systemlord said, just going way up and down too fast.

 

[Systemlord]

These symptoms are not from high DHT, it's diabetic dizziness.

 

[TestTube]

These symptoms are not from high DHT, it's diabetic dizziness.

Yikes

 

[TestTube]

But my A1C is perfect, and my glucose has been perfect. I did not check my glucose for the past 2 or 3 weeks while on the scrotal cream though. But like right now, my glucose is 78. With that said, I do feel like I get postprandial hypoglycemia, especially when my T is up. It's just not showing with my A1C and glucose tests.

 

[Systemlord]

But my A1C is perfect, and my glucose has been perfect.

Then you issue is something else. It could be the delivery system, not everyone feels well on creams.

 

[TestTube]

Then you issue is something else. It could be the delivery system, not everyone feels well on creams.

It sounds like DHT alone shouldn't cause dizziness? yeah, it could be the base or just the ups and downs. It definitely felt like blood sugar was down. it just wasn't. maybe something to do with receptors.

 

[Systemlord]

It sounds like DHT alone shouldn't cause dizziness?

No way, men have had DHT in the 5000-8000 and no dizziness. Typically high DHT is going to cause ache.

yeah, it could be the base or just the ups and downs.

I felt a ramped and a crash within 3 hours of using the cream. I would have had to dose it every couple of hours like Natesto.

Strange Jatenzo is so different in my response, considering the PK profiles are almost the same peaking within 2 hours of dosing. I don't feel any different 2 hours after dosing than I do at 12 hours.

 

[BigTex]

No way, men have had DHT in the 5000-8000 and no dizziness. Typically high DHT is going to cause ache.

I felt a ramped and a crash within 3 hours of using the cream. I would have had to dose it every couple of hours like Natesto.

Strange Jatenzo is so different in my response, considering the PK profiles are almost the same peaking within 2 hours of dosing. I don't feel any different 2 hours after dosing than I do at 12 hours.

Sounds like the creams have a very short half-life, I feel the same way using the test base with DMSO/BA. I get a very aggressive feeling for about 3 hours and then nothing. Usually I eat a big meal after training and take a nap.

 

[apsjiml]

I've been on TRT for about 15 years. I keep my total testosterone on the low end, around 400 (I couldn't get my T over 150 before TRT). This evening I was reading this study: S2577 Development of Liver Cancers as an Unexpected... : Official journal of the American College of Gastroenterology | ACG
Although I barely understand what is being said, it got me thinking, what are the risks of very long term TRT (15, 20 or more years) with regards to liver cancer?
I don't understand the numbers in that study. But how many have been on TRT for more than 15 or 20 years? Any liver problems? Just a general question. I don't know whatever happened to KSMan.

I did IM from 2006-2009. Went off for a bit. Tried gels from 2010-11. Went off. Been doing subq since 2012 (3x a week). Thinking about trying transscrotal cream for a bit. I'm 47 now, but those two guys who got liver cancer in the study above were 55 and 56. Scary.

P.S. I used to be a member of peaktestosterone but I see that site is gone, sadly.

My dad was on testosterone for almost 30 yrs never had any issues, he was 91 when he died. If it were not for the Covid Vaccine, he would still be here today. I have heard of guys using orals developing liver issues but even that is rare. I don't think that study is worth a shit of evidence pointing to testosterone causing liver issues. Testosterone has been used medically long term since the 1940's and honestly has one of the best track records for safety of any medication ever.