*UPDATE* New 6 week labs....lowered dose...higher E2!?!?!?

[BigBamBoo]

Hi Folks.
I had complete labs pulled 12 weeks ago (posted in another thread) and my FT and TT were good.
1034 on TT and FT was 28. Both “over range” on Labcorp ranges.

But my E2 sensitive was really high. 75.4 on 8-35 range.

I was injecting 80mg of T cyp. every 3.5 days. As well as 500iu of HCG every 3.5 days.

Had my consult and they said to lower the dose to 70mg every 3.5 days.
I expressed that I would like to go down to 60mg and they said that was fine but would probably lower my T too low.
I also lowered my HCG down to 300iu every 3.5 days.

Just pulled 6 week labs on the 60mg protocol. TT is 942, FT is 19.4....E2 sensitive is still 73.3.

I will note I stopped taking DHEA as well as my level was 543.2 and thought that was adding to my high E2.

I guess the saving grace if my SHBG is high too...61.3 and probaly keeps my free E a bit lower so I am not a moody mess.

Trying to schedule another consult with Defy, but that takes weeks. Any advice would be great.

I REALLY do not want to go on an AI.

Oh....and I felt better on the 80mg dose.

Thanks for time.

 

[Weasel]

Some guys say DHEA acts as an AI for them but it seems rare. Most guys state that DHEA raises e2 to some extent.

I'd probably retest in another couple weeks and see if it was a fluke. lowering your total weekly dose 40mg is substantial. Your TT did not decrease by much. Id sure expect a greater decrease than 90 points with that big 40mg decrease in dosage .

That's all I got for you!

 

[BigBamBoo]

I totally agree.

I was able to get a consult with one of the doctors at Defy next week, so hopefully he has some input.

I was expecting a much larger drop in T and E2 with the lower doses.

Prior to starting TRT I was 600 TT and 7 FT. But again, my SHBG was around 75.
On th 80mg every three day dose of T that only lowered my SHBG down to 61.3.

I do not drink...have not drank since my early 20’s, don’t drink coffee, sodas, energy drinks, etc. only water.
And the doctor says my liver labs look good. Guess I just am a high SHBG guy.

Thinking about stopping TRT. I have not gained any of the benefits that most folks get from TRT.
In fact, the opposite seems it seems. I get bloated from HCG. My ejaculation volume and force has dropped WAY down since starting.
Never had a problem with libido prior to TRT now I just fell like I can take or leave sex.

Yikes...after writing that down...I really have to ask myself why am I doing this?

 

[Vince]

...after writing that down...I really have to ask myself why am I doing this?

It sounds like you're doing all the right things. You may want to try an AI. If that doesn't work and you're feeling worse then you were before trt, don't wait too long to stop. The longer you're on testosterone the longer it will take your body to recover back to your old levels.

 

[Weasel]

That's a tough one. TT of 600 I would say no way in hell id be on TRT. But FT of 7 would change my answer completely.

Good luck to you!

 

[BigBamBoo]

I was able to get an appointment next Friday with one of the DR’s at Defy to discuss the issue and protocol. Maybe he has an idea that will work?

If not, what is the best way to stop...cold turkey? PTC?

Oh....and I was wrong. My FT was 10 before starting TRT, see attachment.

 

[Weasel]

Still borderline Low IMHO. Defy has a restart protocol that i would follow. It can be found on this site as well.

I'd have a hard time staying on TRT with that TT level. But ive no idea how in the world you would get FT up naturally.

 

[Sean Mosher]

You said your E2 was really high back on the 80mg twice a week of TCyp, but I didn't hear you say you were having any sides.
Plus you also said you felt better back on the protocol than you did on 60mg twice a week.
If you aren't have any sides then I'm not sure I would be messing with anything at this point.
Chasing numbers is not the answer.

In your next consult with Defy, I'd mention that you felt better on your original protocol even with that elevated e2.
Possibly you can add a very very small dose of Anastrozole the day of each shot, but again discuss that with them.
If you aren't experiencing issues I'd hesitate to fool with anything.

 

[BigBamBoo]

Good catch.

No matter the dose I have sore nipples a few times a week. Oily skin and acne on my back and upper arms. Bloating...thought it was due to the HCG so lowered it from 500iu to 300iu 2X a week...no help.

The biggest thing for me is the sex side of it.

Prior to TRT I had zero sexual problems. Rock hard erections. When I would cum, I had LARGE ejaculation volume and force...pull out and easily make a big mess on or above my wife’s face.
Think Peter North volume.
Now, volume and for is WAY down. So now when I get off it is less pleasurable.

And, my libido is pretty flat. I can take it or leave it.

Was told multiple times fromDefy that HCG should restore that, but it has not.

I am thinking now, the whole reason I started was I was just going through a ruff patch in my life mentally...my mother passed away, self employed and have stress about that, etc.

I do like that my mood seems more linear and I “think” it has helped in the gym.
I have always worked out since I was in my mid 20’s, so it could just be once I started TRT I wanted to hit the weights harder because I was ow on “the juice”.

Will post up what Defy says.

 

[Sean Mosher]

I hear ya.
Well definitely talk with them and express that you'd rather not use an AI unless you absolutely have to.
You've got Calcium D Glucarate among others try before resorting to Anastrozole.

 

[BigBamBoo]

Thank you.

Yeah, I am making a list of things to discuss. Right now I am really thinking about dropping TRT and seeing how things go.

I have been in TRT less than a year, so maybe it won’t be to bad to get off it and see where my levels are at that point.

Again, I will post up what comes from the talk with Defy.

 

[Systemlord]

High E2 can make or break TRT for some guys, it can ruin the positive experience and make it seem hardly worth it. I spent a whole year trying to avoid an AI, I require an AI and my E2 levels were virtually the same as yours.

It sounds like your resistance to the AI which sounds like it's needed may be sabotaging your results. You may need supraphysiological doses of testosterone to lower your high SHBG.

 

[BigBamBoo]

Yes, I am VERY resistant to the idea of taking a AI long term...in other words for the rest of TRT.

I overall pretty healthy and in decent shape for a 50 year old. I am 6’2” 210 lbs. Lift weights 4 times a week and do cardio 1-2 times a week.

And prior to starting TRT I had good sexual function...which seems like a lot of reason for men to start TRT...to get their sexual performance back.

So far for me, it has had the opposite effect. Reducing my sexual function and making sex a kinda ho hum thing. Gained weight...not muscle weight.

I am sure a lot of that is due to VERY high E2.

As I mentioned above, I am now just wondering if my reason for starting TRT was because of the funk in my life at the time. Mother passed away, grief from my kids, stress from work, etc.

So I basicly have a week to decide what I am going to do. Maybe Defy will have some great insight I am overlooking and it will be a simple “fix”.

 

[Systemlord]

You can start the AI at a very low dosage and work your way slowly up in dosage testing every couple of weeks. I started the AI 3 weeks ago and have been trying to make decisions based of how I feel, this will end in failure because I get hot when E2 is high, I also get hot flashes when E2 is low so it's impossible to determine based of a feeling whether E2 is high or low.

Defy will likely start you out at .125mg 2-3 times weekly, almost a tenth of a milligram.

 

[BigBamBoo]

That sucks. I know you have been adjusting your protocol for awhile...been seeing your post here and on the other site.

I don’t have a lot of patience for it myself. We have very active/busy lifestyles so being a slave to TRT in itself is annoying.

I was originally scripted .125 AI to keep on hand, but just do not want to go down that road. To many bad long term side effects for. Y liking.

 

[fifty]

I was originally scripted .125 AI to keep on hand, but just do not want to go down that road. To many bad long term side effects for. Y liking.

Too many long term sides like what?

 

[BigBamBoo]

Lowers HDL, can lead to bone lose and all that goes with that...fractures, etc., risk of crashing E2, sexual issues, etc.

Then there are more practical problems...I travel a lot, so carrying around multiple meds has it own risk.

AI use in men for TRT is still pretty new and I have yet to find any studies that address the long term use.

Each of use need to make our own decisions and for me I am just not interested in adding it to my protocol.

I am really leaning towards stopping TRT. Just not getting the benefits I was hoping for.

 

[Systemlord]

Just not getting the benefits I was hoping for.

But my E2 sensitive was really high. 75.4 on 8-35 range.

That's because your estrogen is high, high estrogen makes it seem I like TRT isn't working. Nobody said you have to take the AI long term, most guys can wean off of it after about a year once their metabolic processes is improved.

Those that are putting themselves in danger are those who are taking 3mg weekly, not these minuscule doses.

 

[fifty]

Bigbamboo... my levels are similar to you. Started trt when t was around 600 and free t was around 9. Shbg has always been in the 60s and 70s. E2 high 20s. On 80mg 500iu hcg and .125 arimidex 2x/wk. I started subq with the T and didn’t feel well (anxiety, etc). I then added the arimidex .125 and started feeling much better. Then i switched from subq to IM for the T and felt even better yet.

About a decade ago i was put on arimidex 1mg 3x/wk for 1 month as part of a restart protocol and ended up feeling pretty good when it was all said and done.

That’s just my experience. Hope it helps.

 

[BigBamBoo]

Bigbamboo... my levels are similar to you. Started trt when t was around 600 and free t was around 9. Shbg has always been in the 60s and 70s. E2 high 20s. On 80mg 500iu hcg and .125 arimidex 2x/wk. I started subq with the T and didn’t feel well (anxiety, etc). I then added the arimidex .125 and started feeling much better. Then i switched from subq to IM for the T and felt even better yet.

About a decade ago i was put on arimidex 1mg 3x/wk for 1 month as part of a restart protocol and ended up feeling pretty good when it was all said and done.

That’s just my experience. Hope it helps.

We have almost exactly the same numbers. I am hoping something positive comes from my consult with the Defy Dr next week.

Where does your E2 run now?