Unorthodox "cycle" idea

[BabDaddy]

Hey Gentleman! Im 29 yrs old (5'11, 210lbs and about 15-18%bf). Ive done several steroid cycles starting at 18 up until about 3 years ago with quite a lot of variation in terms of length of cycle, type of steroid, max dosage and stack combinations. Lately however, ive become more concerned with preserving my sperm for fathering children within the next few years as well as avoiding any libido problems. I do still wish to use steroids on occasion. My latest idea is to simply dose 200mg test Propionate + 200mg tren acetate every 2 weeks in the hopes of avoiding reducing my endogenous test levels too much whilst still enjoying a fraction of the benefits of steroid use. Ive been doing this for a couple months now and am certainly noticing a difference from training naturally for the last 3 years. But my concern is endogenous test levels. Is 2 weeks enough time to allow for recovery? Will my endogenous test levels drop at all? Is this large flucutation in test over 2 weeks sustainable over the long term?
Thank you very much for your time, i look forward to your answers

 

[Vince]

Hey Gentleman! Im 29 yrs old (5'11, 210lbs and about 15-18%bf). Ive done several steroid cycles starting at 18 up until about 3 years ago with quite a lot of variation in terms of length of cycle, type of steroid, max dosage and stack combinations. Lately however, ive become more concerned with preserving my sperm for fathering children within the next few years as well as avoiding any libido problems. I do still wish to use steroids on occasion. My latest idea is to simply dose 200mg test Propionate + 200mg tren acetate every 2 weeks in the hopes of avoiding reducing my endogenous test levels too much whilst still enjoying a fraction of the benefits of steroid use. Ive been doing this for a couple months now and am certainly noticing a difference from training naturally for the last 3 years. But my concern is endogenous test levels. Is 2 weeks enough time to allow for recovery? Will my endogenous test levels drop at all? Is this large flucutation in test over 2 weeks sustainable over the long term?
Thank you very much for your time, i look forward to your answers

Before you talk about cycle. How did your sperm test come out?

 

[BabDaddy]

Havent been to get a sperm test yet. Been scheduled multiple times but Covid has prevented any follow through. Courtesy of our socialized healthcare system and genius PM. However, i have impregnated at least 2 women since beginning to cycle if thats any indication (neither were carried to term though). Once at 22 yrs old and once at 27.

 

[bixt]

My latest idea is to simply dose 200mg test Propionate + 200mg tren acetate every 2 weeks in the hopes of avoiding reducing my endogenous test levels too much

Is 2 weeks enough time to allow for recovery?

To the uninitiated, this is the Bill Roberts/ Nelson Montana "2 on 2 off" short cycle.

It comes with the claim that this short duration of "on", while shutting down the hpta, does not result on atrophy. Therefore, allowing immediate resumption of the HPTA on cessation of the short acting short duration AAS.

The same articles promoting this idea come with some claims of blood tests. You will have an almost impossible time finding those kind of bloods tests results here to back this theory up. I have also looked on steroid forums previously and all I can find are bodybuilders bashing the very idea.

A single 2 week cycle will probably allow the HPTA to fire back up.

I have my doubts about making this claim though for repeated back to back, 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off.

 

[BabDaddy]

@bixt
Not quite. Im talking about a single injection of 200mg test p and 200mg tren a, once every 2 weeks. Although, i did get the idea of short cycles from Bill Roberts a few years ago. Nice catch. Also ive been using SteroidPlotter - Graph your cycle to graph my cycles. With my current idea, the time in between doses is enough to see the levels of test p and tren a fall off the charts, but theres no way to measure endogenous testosterone levels during amd after short of getting blood tests everyday.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

If you're going to try this, it makes sense to run a low dose of clomid (e.g. no greater than 12mg per day) at the same time to attempt to counteract the suppression. The doses you are using also sound unnecessarily high given that you will have them in your system for a maximum of about three workouts. You would obviously want to time your heavier workouts to when the anabolics are in your system. You might want to try micro-dosing orals instead since they will be shorter acting and presumably less suppressive.

 

[BabDaddy]

What doses would you reccomend for the test p and tren a? The reason i opted for 200mg is i didnt want to be too close to natural test levels and so i figured 200mg would be well above normal but not too high as to induce too many negative side effects.
Furthermore, what you do you suggest in regards to orals?, i have some dbol i need to use up, so i was thinkin 20 mg pre and post workout on resistance training days (about 3-4 times per week)

If you're going to try this, it makes sense to run a low dose of clomid (e.g. no greater than 12mg per day) at the same time to attempt to counteract the suppression. The doses you are using also sound unnecessarily high given that you will have them in your system for a maximum of about three workouts. You would obviously want to time your heavier workouts to when the anabolics are in your system. You might want to try micro-dosing orals instead since they will be shorter acting and presumably less suppressive.

 

[madman]

Hey Gentleman! Im 29 yrs old (5'11, 210lbs and about 15-18%bf). Ive done several steroid cycles starting at 18 up until about 3 years ago with quite a lot of variation in terms of length of cycle, type of steroid, max dosage and stack combinations. Lately however, ive become more concerned with preserving my sperm for fathering children within the next few years as well as avoiding any libido problems. I do still wish to use steroids on occasion. My latest idea is to simply dose 200mg test Propionate + 200mg tren acetate every 2 weeks in the hopes of avoiding reducing my endogenous test levels too much whilst still enjoying a fraction of the benefits of steroid use. Ive been doing this for a couple months now and am certainly noticing a difference from training naturally for the last 3 years. But my concern is endogenous test levels. Is 2 weeks enough time to allow for recovery? Will my endogenous test levels drop at all? Is this large flucutation in test over 2 weeks sustainable over the long term?
Thank you very much for your time, i look forward to your answers

Not too bright, I would say.

You clearly have no clue what you are doing.

Seeing as you have abused testosterone/AAS from 18-26 (8 years) then there is a good chance your T levels never fully recovered?

Have no clue where your natty T levels let alone other hormones sit!

Do you have labs (TT, FT, estradiol, SHBG, LH/FSH, prolactin) to post?

To reap the full beneficial effects of testosterone/AAS whether on trt or abusing such for the sole purpose of enhanced muscle/strength one would need to achieve steady-state T levels within or slightly above the physiological range when on trt or well into the supra-physiological range when abusing testosterone/AAS for the sole purpose of gaining muscle/strength.

Bad enough that some men on trt are still following that outdated 200mg TE/TC every 2 weeks protocol which would have your T levels absurdly high post-injection/during the first few days then slowly declining throughout the week only to have you being back to hypogonadal well before your next injection.

A rollercoaster ride anyone.

This will have a negative impact on energy/mood/libido/erectile function/recovery let alone have you feeling like S**T well before you hit your true trough (14 days post-injection).

Injecting 200 mg TP would be even worse due to the half-life (short-acting ester).

Even when injecting both short-acting esters (TP/Tren Ace) once every 2-weeks which will result in spiking your levels/clearing your system quicker you are not doing yourself any favors trying to minimize the impact on the HPGA and it is highly doubtful you will feel great overall let alone reap any modest benefits when it comes to gaining muscle/strength.

As you should very well know whether one is on trt or abusing testosterone/AAS most would be injecting medium-acting esterified T (enanthate/cypionate) once or twice weekly or short-acting esterified T (propionate) daily/EOD due to the half-lives/achieving steady-state.

Again have no clue where your natty T levels sit and you are flying blind here.

Would not even waste my time following such a protocol!




Regarding testosterone and suppression of the HPGA.

This is key: long-term maintenance of sustained steady-state testosterone levels in the mid-normal range, which leads to suppression of the endogenous activity of the HPG axis

Short-acting T therapy to maintain homeostasis that more closely reflects normal physiology

Short-Acting Testosterone: Physiologic? Gerwin Westfield, Ursula B Kaiser, Dolores J Lamb, Ranjith Ramasamy INTRODUCTION Pulsatile secretion of a hormone refers to the intermittent secretion of the hormone in a burst like or episodic manner rather than constantly, with the frequency...

www.excelmale.com

TESTOSTERONE PHARMACOKINETICS

The various testosterone formulations have a wide range of dosing intervals including long-acting preparations: subcutaneous pellets (3 to 6 months), injectable IM testosterone undecanoate (10 weeks); intermediate-acting preparations: IM testosterone cypionate/enanthate (1 to 3 weeks); daily preparations: topical/transdermal formulations; and short-acting preparations: oral testosterone undecanoate (twice daily) and nasal testosterone (two to three times daily). All formulations, with the exception of the short-acting ones, have a target of long-term maintenance of sustained steady-state testosterone levels in the mid-normal range, which leads to suppression of the endogenous activity of the HPG axis.




*Pulsatile secretion of a hormone refers to the intermittent secretion of the hormone in a burst-like or episodic manner rather than constantly, with the frequency varying from minutes to hours, determined in part by the half-life of the hormone

*T levels in a healthy male follow a diurnal variation and circadian rhythm, with levels highest early in the morning and subsequently declining as the day progresses, as a direct result of pulsatile LH secretion

*A sustained steady-state level of T, however, differs from the normal circadian physiology of a healthy individual.


*If high levels of testosterone are given exogenously for extended periods of time, this can result in negative feedback to the hypothalamus and anterior pituitary, disrupting normal HPG regulation




*As previously noted, testosterone levels in young healthy males follow a circadian rhythm. T levels are highest in the morning and lower in the evening hours. There is significant change within a 24-h period. Testosterone itself acts as a negative feedback molecule to the hypothalamus and anterior pituitary. When T levels are high enough, they signal to reduce GnRH, LH, and FSH secretion, thereby also reducing endogenous testosterone production. This occurs regardless of whether the circulating testosterone is endogenous or exogenous. If high levels of testosterone are given exogenously for extended periods of time, this can result in negative feedback to the hypothalamus and anterior pituitary, disrupting normal HPG regulation





*Topical gel formulations achieve a sustained mid-normal T level with a once-daily application (8). While the topical gel results in less fluctuation of T levels between dosing intervals when compared to IM T, the sustained T levels result in inhibition of HPG axis activity (9). The inhibition of HPG axis activity is evidenced by the nearly full suppression of gonadotropin levels following treatment with either IM injectable testosterone (10) or topical gel administration (9)

*Nasal administration of T (4.5% testosterone nasal gel, Natesto) allows for rapid absorption through the nasal mucosa such that serum T levels reach a peak concentration in ∼40 min. Once in the circulation, the T is quickly metabolized, with a return to near baseline T levels in 3–6 h (11). Therefore, multiple administrations of nasal T throughout the day (three times daily) maintain normal mean serum T levels over 24 h. The fluctuations in T levels potentially minimize the duration of exposure to exogenous T that is suppressive to the HPG axis, compared to other available T therapies.


*Endocrine systems are regulated dynamically in response to positive or negative stimuli within a homeostatic environment. Modalities of T therapy evolved to extend the dosing interval and maintain sustained “steady-state” T levels. Long-acting TTh can inhibit the HPG axis, which in turn suppresses pituitary LH and FSH secretion, reducing circulating levels of LH and FSH and endogenous T production

*Short-acting T therapy, consisting of several doses of T with a shorter half-life throughout the day, minimizes inhibition of the HPG axis and reduces the impairment of spermatogenesis

 

[BabDaddy]

So you believe that once a "fortnight" injections of test p and tren a would, without a doubt, shut down natural production? I havent seen any literature that demonstrates this. Care to share? Or do you simply prefer to throw stones?

 

[Gladiator]

So you believe that once a "fortnight" injections of test p and tren a would, without a doubt, shut down natural production? I havent seen any literature that demonstrates this. Care to share? Or do you simply prefer to throw stones?

As far as I know TrenA alone will shut you down.
I really hope you do this and then post bloods in 6 weeks.

I don’t need to throw stones. I think you already got enough rocks in your head for thinking about doing this.

I have seen people talk about using TrenA for 10days to shut down natural testosterone production to get on trt.

 

[BabDaddy]

Really? a single dose of tren a will shut you down? Thats very valuable information, thank you for sharing, ill strongly consider removing the tren from my protocol if thats the case. Unfortunate though. Tren does feel great. Is there any literature on how quickly your natural test will shut down after a single dose of test p though? I was thinking that it wouldnt be supressive for long enough to actually shut down natural production. Do you think adding HCG to the protocol might have any benefit?

Now I have read a lot of stupid things on Facebook and forums before this.

Seriously you need to think about how stupid this is.

You are treating steroids and your hormones like a party drug. It’s just so funny you would want to use testP when everyone on trt knows once a fortnight injections of testC and TestE are a roller coaster.

You risk shutting your natural levels down and feel like death for 10days a fortnight.

As far as I know TrenA alone will shut you down.
I really hope you do this and then post bloods in 6 weeks.

I don’t need to throw stones. I think you already got enough rocks in your head for thinking about doing this.

I have seen people talk about using TrenA for 10days to shut down natural testosterone production to get on trt.

 

[Banderas]

Did you try this and did bloodwork? Tren is way more suppressive than Testo. I think 100mg Testo P every week is a better approach.