TRT + Nandrolone New Protocol

[amc2max]

I have been on TRT for the past 5 months and it has been life changing. In my last consult with my Dr, however, I brought up my history of debilitating joint and tendon pain that I've dealt with for years and we decided to add in Nandrolone decanoate to my protocol while reducing my Test cyp. dosage. If it weren't for the joint issues we wouldn't be making any changes.

Current protocol is 180mg test cyp/wk + 750iu HCG/wk (3x per week) also using a topical finasteride foam. My new protocol will be 90mg Test cyp/wk + 90mg Nandrolone/wk + 750iu HCG (3x per week). I will be discontinuing the topical finasteride with the new protocol.

I've read through as many threads on this forum regarding adding ND to their TRT and it seems like many people are adding the ND on top of their existing test dose. With what I've read on here about ND and T competing for androgen receptors, do you guys think I am likely to be under-dosed compared to my current protocol? Is there anyone in the forum who has had a similar protocol to mine where you lowered the test dose and replaced it with ND?

 

[Gman86]

Nandrolone competes with Test for androgen receptors? I’ve never heard this before.

This doesn’t sound like a bad place to start. I do see u possibly running into issues with having too low of DHT and E2 on just 90mg of test per week, considering u feel really good on 180mg of test per week. So I would start with the 90mg of both per week, and then if u start to not feel that great, would keep the nandrolone at 90mg, and up ur test by 10mg, and see how u feel I’m 4-6 weeks or so. If u still don’t feel as good as u did while on 180mg of test, would just continue upping ur test dose by 10mg every 4-6 weeks until u feel close to as good as u felt on 180mg/ week. Hopefully u feel great on 90mg of each person week, but if u dont, that’s how I would personally go about trying to get back to feeling good. I personally take 175mg of test and 100mg of nandrolone per week, and all my labs look perfect.

 

[Wilson7]

Nandrolone does bind with the AR (Saartok et al 1984), and weakly with SHBG. From an anabolic perspective (muscle) they are similar so it really doesn't matter, the difference as Gman mentioned is with E2 and DHT. N aromatizes to much lesser extent than T, and DHN is a weak androgen, thus the problems with ED and libido with too much N and not enough T. Topical finasteride reduces circulating DHT by 25 - 45%, about half of what you'd expect with oral FIN at 1 mg/d (Caserini 2016). HCG at 750 IU 3x/wk alone would have significant effects on T, E2 and DHT. You have alot of moving parts here and changing several variables at once (adding ND, reducing T, stopping FIN) will make it difficult to assess the effects/side-effects as what to do if you have issues. The only real way to know what is happening to circulating T, E2 and DHT is to get them checked before and after 6+ weeks to achieve steady state (ND/T), and only use LC/MS-MS or the ND will cross-react with the standard assay and you'll never know just what your true T blood conc is. Then at least you have some idea as to what is possibly causing what and adjust treatment to address only one variable at a time.

 

[madman]

I have been on TRT for the past 5 months and it has been life changing. In my last consult with my Dr, however, I brought up my history of debilitating joint and tendon pain that I've dealt with for years and we decided to add in Nandrolone decanoate to my protocol while reducing my Test cyp. dosage. If it weren't for the joint issues we wouldn't be making any changes.

Current protocol is 180mg test cyp/wk + 750iu HCG/wk (3x per week) also using a topical finasteride foam. My new protocol will be 90mg Test cyp/wk + 90mg Nandrolone/wk + 750iu HCG (3x per week). I will be discontinuing the topical finasteride with the new protocol.

I've read through as many threads on this forum regarding adding ND to their TRT and it seems like many people are adding the ND on top of their existing test dose. With what I've read on here about ND and T competing for androgen receptors, do you guys think I am likely to be under-dosed compared to my current protocol? Is there anyone in the forum who has had a similar protocol to mine where you lowered the test dose and replaced it with ND?

ND binds more strongly to the AR of muscle tissue.

Would not fret over such.

180 mg T/week + 750 IU hCG 3x/week most likely has your trough FT very high.

Post labs trough TT, FT, estradiol, DHT, hemoglobin/hematocrit?

Would be wise to know where your levels truly sit before dropping your T dose drastically 180 mg---90 mg/week.

If you feel great overall, blood markers are healthy, minus sides and it works for you stick with it.

Would most likely feel just as good running the hCG 250-500 IU 2-3/week.

750 IU 3x/week would be overkill for most.

Most use ND for relief/improvement of bone/joint pain and the therapeutic dose is 50-100 mg ND/week.

Keep in mind that on trt we are using therapeutic doses (50-100 mg/week) of ND and some may run slightly higher levels.

Again the majority are using it for relief/improvement of joint/bone pain and adding it to their trt protocol.

The small pilot study from Lipscultz had men that were on a T-only protocol (100/200 mg/week).

The men on 100 mg/week of T were adding 50 mg/week of ND.

The men on 200 mg/week of T were adding 100 mg/week of ND.

There are also some men who struggle with T-only protocols especially when running higher doses and will take the approach of lowering their T dose <100 mg/week and adding in ND at a dose of 100-150 mg/week depending on the individual.

You could have left your T dose and still added it in the ND minus any sides other than driving up your hematocrit/driving down HDL although it is not a given especially when using lower doses.

If anything dropping your T dose from 180--->90 mg/week is a drastic jump and is going to drive down your FT, estradiol, DHT (at least you are dropping the topical 5ARi).

You should be getting a decent boost FT and estradiol from the hCG.

Even then the only way to truly know is to have blood work done on a T-only protocol and compare it with the T+ hCG protocol.

Hard to say where your trough TT, FT, and estradiol will sit on such a dose of 90 mg T/week + 750 IU hCG 3x/week.

Keep in mind any time one adds ND to a T-only protocol that it is critical to use the most accurate assays for TT (LC-MS/MS) and FT (Equilibrium Dialysis or Ultrafiltration) otherwise your results will be skewed and you will have absolutely no idea where your TT/FT level truly sits.




These are the assays you should be using when on a T + ND protocol:

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[madman]

Nandrolone competes with Test for androgen receptors? I’ve never heard this before.

This doesn’t sound like a bad place to start. I do see u possibly running into issues with having too low of DHT and E2 on just 90mg of test per week, considering u feel really good on 180mg of test per week. So I would start with the 90mg of both per week, and then if u start to not feel that great, would keep the nandrolone at 90mg, and up ur test by 10mg, and see how u feel I’m 4-6 weeks or so. If u still don’t feel as good as u did while on 180mg of test, would just continue upping ur test dose by 10mg every 4-6 weeks until u feel close to as good as u felt on 180mg/ week. Hopefully u feel great on 90mg of each person week, but if u dont, that’s how I would personally go about trying to get back to feeling good. I personally take 175mg of test and 100mg of nandrolone per week, and all my labs look perfect.

Piss poor advice!

Whether one is starting trt or tweaking a protocol no one should be upping their T dose 4-6 weeks in unless trough FT levels were absurdly low (highly doubtful).

Top it off that blood levels from ND will take longer to stabilize than blood levels from the T due to the decanoate ester.

Every protocol should be given a fighting chance 12 weeks to truly claim it was a success or failure.

You should very well know when using exogenous esterified T (TC/TE) that hormones are in flux during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks).

Common for many to experience ups/downs during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized (4-6 weeks) as the body is trying to adjust.

The first 4-6 weeks can be very misleading and mean nothing when looking at the bigger picture.

Even once blood levels have stabilized it will take time for the body to adapt to the new set-point and this is the critical time period when one should gauge how they truly feel overall regarding relief/improvement of low-t symptoms and overall well-being.

Too many are still caught up on that quick fix let alone more is better mentality.

 

[amc2max]

@Gman86 @Wilson7 @madman thanks for all the advice I really appreciate your input

 

[themadhatter]

@amc2max so what ended up happening with this?