TRT, HCG, LIBIDO??

[Swilsondc]

Hey everyone, new to the forum but have been on some form of TRT for 13 years. For the last year or so I feel like I’m pretty dialed in. Using test cyp subcu 2x/wk & HCG 3x/wk 270 ius each time. My question is this though……
Over the last 4-5 months there has been 2 times that I had go 3-4 weeks without HCG because they were out. The first 1-2 weeks both times I could tell a noticeable increase in my sex drive. I didn’t think much about it the first time but when it happened again I began to wonder what could be happening physiologically. Does anybody have any ideas or have had this happen?? Don’t get me wrong, I think HCG has overall helped my libido, well being, testicular atrophy etc. while taking it. I’m just wondering if something else gets a little to high or low while taking it.

 

[CKO]

I also just went without HCG for two weeks, due to delays in shipping and felt better without it. I have found HCG really drives up my E2 which causes a loss in libido as well as a marked increase in anxiety. For me, it appears to be an estrogen related issue.

 

[Swilsondc]

I also just went without HCG for two weeks, due to delays in shipping and felt better without it. I have found HCG really drives up my E2 which causes a loss in libido as well as a marked increase in anxiety. For me, it appears to be an estrogen related issue.

I was thinking the same thing about E2 even though I don’t have any labs off HCG. I having been thinking about decreasing x/wk and amount to see how that works b/c I definitely tell a difference in my balls w/out HCG.
I haven’t told my doctor about this but last visit he encouraged me to switch to clomid w/ test cyp to in theory(in my opinion) get the same results….. retain testicular function. I have read what’s on here about that. Years ago most against it, but recently a few studies that are pro. And yeah I’ve read why it shouldn’t work b/c of T suppression and why some say it won’t & LH&FSH will be produced. It seems like a lot of people haven’t tried it and even if they had it may or may not work for me. So I’m kinda torn. I really wonder what is the minimum you have to useHCG to keep everything working.

 

[ivkonst2017]

HCG is a very special thing. Not everyone can tolerate it and many of the people who do(me included) tolerate up to a certain dose - above that negatives occur. For me that dose is up to 700ui per week. I dont give a damn what the studiea say about that, I know people who take 2x50 ui weekly of HCG and above that - they get side effects.

Also I would advice anyone experiencing issues with HCG to try doing it daily. Cannot understand why a lot of people here talk about daily cypionate injections, but almost none about daily HCG injections? HCG has much shorter half life than cypionate. Im very angry the HCG I have now available cannot be used daily because it is with preset doses the lowest being 250..

 

[Ardoc2]

I have noticed I get improved feeling/libido when I restart HCG for the first couple of months and once it starts to wane or i start to develop high E2 like symptoms (i say 'like' because I've not seen a significantly different E2 test result while on or off HCG). Then for a month or more i will stop HCG and get the same subjective improvement in feeling/libido. I have repeated this twice so far and have restarted for the 3rd time. I have not been able to find any info stating that 'cycling' HCG has any negative effects (or good effects for that matter). However this seems in keeping with reports on here about improvements during a protocol change that starts to fade as you reach steady state.

 

[Gman86]

everyone’s focused on E2, which very well could be the culprit for a decreased libido while on HCG, but what I would be focusing on first is HCG’s effects on prolactin. Libido in males mainly comes from E2. And if there’s a hormone that could be considered the opposite of testosterone, it would definitely be prolactin. Almost every positive that comes from taking testosterone, having high levels of prolactin can cause the exact opposite symptoms. I theorize that most issues that men blame on E2, are actually high prolactin symptoms. E2 and prolactin tend to increase and decrease together, so I can see how it may be easy to confuse high prolactin symptoms for high E2 symptoms. But since E2 is the main driver of libido in males, what u see more with high E2 is high libido, but softer erections. What we usually see with high prolactin in males, is decreased libido as well as erection issues, as well as all the other common high prolactin symptoms, which if u look at them, tend to be correlated more with high E2, than high prolactin, with most guys on HRT. So moral of the story, I would be looking into prolactin before looking into E2, whenever a guy has issues that he thinks are caused by E2 being too high.

 

[ivkonst2017]

everyone’s focused on E2, which very well could be the culprit for a decreased libido while on HCG, but what I would be focusing on first is HCG’s effects on prolactin. Libido in males mainly comes from E2. And if there’s a hormone that could be considered the opposite of testosterone, it would definitely be prolactin. Almost every positive that comes from taking testosterone, having high levels of prolactin can cause the exact opposite symptoms. I theorize that most issues that men blame on E2, are actually high prolactin symptoms. E2 and prolactin tend to increase and decrease together, so I can see how it may be easy to confuse high prolactin symptoms for high E2 symptoms. But since E2 is the main driver of libido in males, what u see more with high E2 is high libido, but softer erections. What we usually see with high prolactin in males, is decreased libido as well as erection issues, as well as all the other common high prolactin symptoms, which if u look at them, tend to be correlated more with high E2, than high prolactin, with most guys on HRT. So moral of the story, I would be looking into prolactin before looking into E2, whenever a guy has issues that he thinks are caused by E2 being too high.

I tend to agree with you, however I can share my experience with prolactin. I battle it since before TRT having empty sella syndrom and started caber in 2019 six months before TRT. My prolactine was 370-400 in our units, the upper range being 312. I got some improvements when I brought it down to 160, then when I started TRT after a few months it jumped to 270 and has been 270-300 ever since.

I havent noticed change in practine when I had stopped HCG last summer(it was the same value) and as I have researched the increase of 100 units sincre starting TRT should be mostly due to stopping of the hormone production in the frontal part of the pituitary rather than the increase in e2. However that may be wrong since when I started TRT my e2 doubled, but Ive had periods when I felt great with this doubled e2 of 70-80pg/ml and I havent found any correlation between feeling worse and high e2 levels on myself.

My oppinion on HCG is that somehow the compound itself after a certain dose(different for everyone thats why again I wouldnt follow any studies here) makes a male feel bad regardless of its effect on the hormones. Lets not forget HCG is not a natural male hormone unlike test, e2 and prolactine. On the other hand I know guys who can take 1000 units HCG EOD and experience no negative. Even one friend of mine mistakenly the first time injected with the pen 6500 instead of 500 and said he just had 8 times the next day and nothing else unusual

 

[Gman86]

I tend to agree with you, however I can share my experience with prolactin. I battle it since before TRT having empty sella syndrom and started caber in 2019 six months before TRT. My prolactine was 370-400 in our units, the upper range being 312. I got some improvements when I brought it down to 160, then when I started TRT after a few months it jumped to 270 and has been 270-300 ever since.

I havent noticed change in practine when I had stopped HCG last summer(it was the same value) and as I have researched the increase of 100 units sincre starting TRT should be mostly due to stopping of the hormone production in the frontal part of the pituitary rather than the increase in e2. However that may be wrong since when I started TRT my e2 doubled, but Ive had periods when I felt great with this doubled e2 of 70-80pg/ml and I havent found any correlation between feeling worse and high e2 levels on myself.

My oppinion on HCG is that somehow the compound itself after a certain dose(different for everyone thats why again I wouldnt follow any studies here) makes a male feel bad regardless of its effect on the hormones. Lets not forget HCG is not a natural male hormone unlike test, e2 and prolactine. On the other hand I know guys who can take 1000 units HCG EOD and experience no negative. Even one friend of mine mistakenly the first time injected with the pen 6500 instead of 500 and said he just had 8 times the next day and nothing else unusual

8 times?!?! Lol. I remember on HCG mono my libido was through the roof, but my nipples itched so bad I would scratch them until they bleed. I never had prolactin tested, but I assume the nipple issues were due to prolactin or progesterone activation from the HCG. I don’t think it was due to E2, only because on TRT, I’ve never once had any nipple issues, and I’ve had my E2 much much higher on TRT than it was on HCG mono

Overall tho, in regards to HCG, and why it makes some people feel great and others horrible, there’s just so many factors to be able to tell what’s causing what. I know it can raise E2 and prolactin, and i know it can raise DHEA levels pretty drastically, and it can probably raise progesterone levels, so it’s just so hard to determine what mechanisms of HCG are causing what symptoms. Each symptom could even be due to different mechanisms. For example, mood issues on HCG could be due to one mechanism of HCG, and sexual issues might be due to a completely different mechanism. HCG is just a complicated compound. And whenever a compound is complicated and effects multiple hormone pathways, ur always gonna have a large disparity in regards to it working great for some, and making others feel horrible

 

[M.J]

everyone’s focused on E2, which very well could be the culprit for a decreased libido while on HCG, but what I would be focusing on first is HCG’s effects on prolactin. Libido in males mainly comes from E2. And if there’s a hormone that could be considered the opposite of testosterone, it would definitely be prolactin. Almost every positive that comes from taking testosterone, having high levels of prolactin can cause the exact opposite symptoms. I theorize that most issues that men blame on E2, are actually high prolactin symptoms. E2 and prolactin tend to increase and decrease together, so I can see how it may be easy to confuse high prolactin symptoms for high E2 symptoms. But since E2 is the main driver of libido in males, what u see more with high E2 is high libido, but softer erections. What we usually see with high prolactin in males, is decreased libido as well as erection issues, as well as all the other common high prolactin symptoms, which if u look at them, tend to be correlated more with high E2, than high prolactin, with most guys on HRT. So moral of the story, I would be looking into prolactin before looking into E2, whenever a guy has issues that he thinks are caused by E2 being too high.

I have never tested prolactin while on trt.
Does trt increases prolactin ?

 

[M.J]

I tend to agree with you, however I can share my experience with prolactin. I battle it since before TRT having empty sella syndrom and started caber in 2019 six months before TRT. My prolactine was 370-400 in our units, the upper range being 312. I got some improvements when I brought it down to 160, then when I started TRT after a few months it jumped to 270 and has been 270-300 ever since.

I havent noticed change in practine when I had stopped HCG last summer(it was the same value) and as I have researched the increase of 100 units sincre starting TRT should be mostly due to stopping of the hormone production in the frontal part of the pituitary rather than the increase in e2. However that may be wrong since when I started TRT my e2 doubled, but Ive had periods when I felt great with this doubled e2 of 70-80pg/ml and I havent found any correlation between feeling worse and high e2 levels on myself.

My oppinion on HCG is that somehow the compound itself after a certain dose(different for everyone thats why again I wouldnt follow any studies here) makes a male feel bad regardless of its effect on the hormones. Lets not forget HCG is not a natural male hormone unlike test, e2 and prolactine. On the other hand I know guys who can take 1000 units HCG EOD and experience no negative. Even one friend of mine mistakenly the first time injected with the pen 6500 instead of 500 and said he just had 8 times the next day and nothing else unusual

I also don’t notice and relation between estrogen and bad libido if anything I would assume estrogen would help that’s why I am off AI .
Reducing my HCG to 250 eod managed to bring back libido. For a short time. I am not sure yet if it will come back or the reason behind libido coming back is just changing protocol. Like testosterone cream some have high libido which with time fades away at least for some.

 

[Gman86]

I have never tested prolactin while on trt.
Does trt increases prolactin ?

Ya testosterone converts into both E2 and prolactin. If u look up benefits of E2 there’s a ton of them. If u look up the benefits of prolactin in men I’m not even sure if there’s even one benefit, pretty much all negatives. And most of them correlate with what most men think of when they think of high E2 symptoms. Not saying that prolactin is always the culprit, and high E2 can’t cause any issues, just something to think about and be cognizant of

 

[ivkonst2017]

I also don’t notice and relation between estrogen and bad libido if anything I would assume estrogen would help that’s why I am off AI .
Reducing my HCG to 250 eod managed to bring back libido. For a short time. I am not sure yet if it will come back or the reason behind libido coming back is just changing protocol. Like testosterone cream some have high libido which with time fades away at least for some.

I dont say this should be the case for you, but for me 250 EOD is too high of a dose and brings a lot of negatives

 

[Cataceous]

Ya testosterone converts into ... prolactin. ...

Absolutely not. Prolactin is a protein and peptide hormone, and its molecular weight is hundreds of times greater than that of hormones such as testosterone. Perhaps you mean to say that testosterone is converted into estradiol, which in turn stimulates greater prolactin production. Quoting Wikipedia: "A key regulator of prolactin production is estrogens that enhance growth of prolactin-producing cells and stimulate prolactin production directly, as well as suppressing dopamine."

 

[M.J]

I dont say this should be the case for you, but for me 250 EOD is too high of a dose and brings a lot of negatives

Inever had anything negative from hcg even at 500. I guess it’s fine with my system for some reason.

 

[M.J]

Absolutely not. Prolactin is a protein and peptide hormone, and its molecular weight is hundreds of times greater than that of hormones such as testosterone. Perhaps you mean to say that testosterone is converted into estradiol, which in turn stimulates greater prolactin production. Quoting Wikipedia: "A key regulator of prolactin production is estrogens that enhance growth of prolactin-producing cells and stimulate prolactin production directly, as well as suppressing dopamine."

So estrogen suppress dopamine ???

 

[M.J]

I tend to agree with you, however I can share my experience with prolactin. I battle it since before TRT having empty sella syndrom and started caber in 2019 six months before TRT. My prolactine was 370-400 in our units, the upper range being 312. I got some improvements when I brought it down to 160, then when I started TRT after a few months it jumped to 270 and has been 270-300 ever since.

I havent noticed change in practine when I had stopped HCG last summer(it was the same value) and as I have researched the increase of 100 units sincre starting TRT should be mostly due to stopping of the hormone production in the frontal part of the pituitary rather than the increase in e2. However that may be wrong since when I started TRT my e2 doubled, but Ive had periods when I felt great with this doubled e2 of 70-80pg/ml and I havent found any correlation between feeling worse and high e2 levels on myself.

My oppinion on HCG is that somehow the compound itself after a certain dose(different for everyone thats why again I wouldnt follow any studies here) makes a male feel bad regardless of its effect on the hormones. Lets not forget HCG is not a natural male hormone unlike test, e2 and prolactine. On the other hand I know guys who can take 1000 units HCG EOD and experience no negative. Even one friend of mine mistakenly the first time injected with the pen 6500 instead of 500 and said he just had 8 times the next day and nothing else unusual

I will add one thing to this, before trt I took ginseng 6000 per day.
During one month i did three tests and they showed estrogen going lower and prolactin going higher. in around the 10 or 15 day I got increase in libido (estrogen was around 16) for only one or two days. Then nothing even when I stopped ginseng estrogen started going higher and prolactin lower but didn’t get this surge in libido.

estrogne went from 22 to 9 non-sensitive
Prolactin climbed toward 300 I guess.

 

[M.J]

8 times?!?! Lol. I remember on HCG mono my libido was through the roof, but my nipples itched so bad I would scratch them until they bleed. I never had prolactin tested, but I assume the nipple issues were due to prolactin or progesterone activation from the HCG. I don’t think it was due to E2, only because on TRT, I’ve never once had any nipple issues, and I’ve had my E2 much much higher on TRT than it was on HCG mono

Overall tho, in regards to HCG, and why it makes some people feel great and others horrible, there’s just so many factors to be able to tell what’s causing what. I know it can raise E2 and prolactin, and i know it can raise DHEA levels pretty drastically, and it can probably raise progesterone levels, so it’s just so hard to determine what mechanisms of HCG are causing what symptoms. Each symptom could even be due to different mechanisms. For example, mood issues on HCG could be due to one mechanism of HCG, and sexual issues might be due to a completely different mechanism. HCG is just a complicated compound. And whenever a compound is complicated and effects multiple hormone pathways, ur always gonna have a large disparity in regards to it working great for some, and making others feel horrible

I can confirm hcg does raise progesterone with 500 eod my progesterone test was at maximum number of the reference range.

 

[ivkonst2017]

So estrogen suppress dopamine ???

No such mechanism was discovered. Prolactine also ae I have checked regarding my empty sella doesnt suppress dopamine as I know, just out competes it - reduces its action. However dopamine suppresses prolactine.

 

[ivkonst2017]

I will as add one thing to this, before trt I took ginseng 6000 per day.
During one month i did three tests and they showed estrogen going lower and prolactin going higher. in around the 10 or 15 day I got increase in libido (estrogen was around 16) for only one or two days. Then nothing even when I stopped ginseng estrogen started going higher and prolactin lower but didn’t get this surge in libido.

estrogne went from 22 to 9 non-sensitive
Prolactin climbed toward 300 I guess.

Sometimes we get surge in libido when we change things and hormones. Ive noted that many times but this is not consistent.

But I think there is general consensus that high levels of prolactine suppress libido, but be sure too low are even worse. Low levels of estrogen also destroy libido, too high can do it as well for some people, but also in many folks the negatives of too high estradiol levels can be compensated by accordingly high test levels.

 

[M.J]

Sometimes we get surge in libido when we change things and hormones. Ive noted that many times but this is not consistent.

But I think there is general consensus that high levels of prolactine suppress libido, but be sure too low are even worse. Low levels of estrogen also destroy libido, too high can do it as well for some people, but also in many folks the negatives of too high estradiol levels can be compensated by accordingly high test levels.

I have also notice as prolactin went high I was more interested to spend time with the kids, wife. It was very clear to me prolactin is making me more family friendly.