Thyroid experiment complete

[madman]

I get labs drawn probably at least 5 times per year, and get about 8 tubes drawn each time. I’m pretty sure that my ferritin is on the lower side due to getting labs done too frequently. Could possibly be a methylation issue. I plan on getting 23 and me done at some point to find out. But I honestly think it’s just due to getting labs drawn too often. I don’t take NAC or turmeric. Didn’t know NAC blinded to iron, but I was aware about turmeric, and purposely avoid it for that reason. And ya RBC, HCT and HGB are all good.

Highly doubtful even when having 8 tubes drawn each time that this small amount of blood loss is lowering your ferritin.

Donating for sure as 500 ml of blood is being drawn!


*If you need a lot of tests therefore, you could end up having about 30 ml of blood (about six medicine teaspoons) taken out of your arm.





How much blood is normally taken?

This depends on the sort of tests you are having done. Many tests can be done on the same sample of blood so you do not need to have a single bottle for each one: The bottles do not necessarily have to be completely filled either.

• Purple bottle - 3 ml - used for a full blood count (FBC) and ESR. An FBC needs 1 ml; a full 2.5 ml is needed if an ESR is also performed.
• Yellow bottle - 2.5 ml - this is used for a lot of different chemical tests, so it is usually completely filled.
• Other less common tests come in bottles up to 6 ml in volume and blood culture bottles are the largest size at 10 ml.

If you need a lot of tests therefore, you could end up having about 30 ml of blood (about six medicine teaspoons) taken out of your arm. It's worth saying that the body can well cope with this, as the volume is soon made up by the blood production system in the bone marrow. Considering that about 500 ml of blood are given by blood donors during each donation, this is certainly not an excuse for tea and biscuits!

 

[Gman86]

Highly doubtful even when having 8 tubes drawn each time that this small amount of blood loss is lowering your ferritin.

Donating for sure as 500 ml of blood is being drawn!


*If you need a lot of tests therefore, you could end up having about 30 ml of blood (about six medicine teaspoons) taken out of your arm.





How much blood is normally taken?

This depends on the sort of tests you are having done. Many tests can be done on the same sample of blood so you do not need to have a single bottle for each one: The bottles do not necessarily have to be completely filled either.

• Purple bottle - 3 ml - used for a full blood count (FBC) and ESR. An FBC needs 1 ml; a full 2.5 ml is needed if an ESR is also performed.
• Yellow bottle - 2.5 ml - this is used for a lot of different chemical tests, so it is usually completely filled.
• Other less common tests come in bottles up to 6 ml in volume and blood culture bottles are the largest size at 10 ml.

If you need a lot of tests therefore, you could end up having about 30 ml of blood (about six medicine teaspoons) taken out of your arm. It's worth saying that the body can well cope with this, as the volume is soon made up by the blood production system in the bone marrow. Considering that about 500 ml of blood are given by blood donors during each donation, this is certainly not an excuse for tea and biscuits!

Love your deep dives into things. Appreciate the time you took to analyze all this.

 

[Marco N Cognito]

Highly doubtful even when having 8 tubes drawn each time that this small amount of blood loss is lowering your ferritin.

Donating for sure as 500 ml of blood is being drawn!


*If you need a lot of tests therefore, you could end up having about 30 ml of blood (about six medicine teaspoons) taken out of your arm.





How much blood is normally taken?

This depends on the sort of tests you are having done. Many tests can be done on the same sample of blood so you do not need to have a single bottle for each one: The bottles do not necessarily have to be completely filled either.

• Purple bottle - 3 ml - used for a full blood count (FBC) and ESR. An FBC needs 1 ml; a full 2.5 ml is needed if an ESR is also performed.
• Yellow bottle - 2.5 ml - this is used for a lot of different chemical tests, so it is usually completely filled.
• Other less common tests come in bottles up to 6 ml in volume and blood culture bottles are the largest size at 10 ml.

If you need a lot of tests therefore, you could end up having about 30 ml of blood (about six medicine teaspoons) taken out of your arm. It's worth saying that the body can well cope with this, as the volume is soon made up by the blood production system in the bone marrow. Considering that about 500 ml of blood are given by blood donors during each donation, this is certainly not an excuse for tea and biscuits!

I recall that over half (~35 tubes) were the yellow ones, so that right there is ~ 87ml + another 30 of the other tubes and I would estimate 175-200ml total was drawn in my case.

 

[Bob Lee]

Love your deep dives into things. Appreciate the time you took to analyze all this.

gman, what did you end up doing? I started on 1/4 grain last week. I wanted to see if I could tell a difference. It does make me feel something funny in my head, but not much else.
I am like you in that it is the same kind of experiment. I don’t want to completely suppress my natural if there is not significant subjective difference.

 

[Gman86]

gman, what did you end up doing? I started on 1/4 grain last week. I wanted to see if I could tell a difference. It does make me feel something funny in my head, but not much else.
I am like you in that it is the same kind of experiment. I don’t want to completely suppress my natural if there is not significant subjective difference.

Currently just taking 1/2 grain of WP thyroid in am. Been on that for a while now. Gonna be pulling labs in probably a month or less. Extremely curious to see if I’m at a net positive still for free T3 or not. On 1/4 grain I was. So we’ll see where 1/2 a grain has me.

 

[Marco N Cognito]

My basal temps are extremely low without thyroid medication. There around 96.2. I also have some lethargy/ fatigue and a ton of brain fog. Just trying to optimize my thyroid completely, and if it doesn’t improve the fatigue and brain fog, I can at least rule it about and focus on other areas. Process of elimination basically.

My basal temp has gone up to around 97.0, but brain fog and fatigue haven’t budged.

Ya there’s a ton of iron in my diet between eating red meat daily and taking beef liver capsules daily. I get blood work done too often. So my ferritin stays relatively low. This is the highest it’s been in a long time though, so that’s good. 150 is probably as high as a guy should strive for though. I think ideal ferritin is around 70-130 range.

Have you found out why serum iron is normal to high but ferritin won't budge? Some claim it's due to a methylation problem, but I haven't found any science to back that up. I just think it takes a long time, like months, to replete ferritin whereas serum will replete within days.

BTW, my serum iron and ferritin did not drop that much from the 60-tube blood draw after all.

I am now @ 1.75 grain NDT daily split in 2 doses and am still not optimized. Will report on that separately.

 

[Gman86]

Have you found out why serum iron is normal to high but ferritin won't budge? Some claim it's due to a methylation problem, but I haven't found any science to back that up. I just think it takes a long time, like months, to replete ferritin whereas serum will replete within days.

BTW, my serum iron and ferritin did not drop that much from the 60-tube blood draw after all.

I am now @ 1.75 grain NDT daily split in 2 doses and am still not optimized. Will report on that separately.

I think you’re most likely right and that ferritin just takes a while to replete, while serum iron is just a snapshot of how much iron you’ve taken in recently I’m pretty sure. Would something like 23 and me tell you if you have methylation issues? I think I’m gonna get one done next time they’re on sale. I think I just get labs done to often.

What NDT are you taking? And how do you know you’re not optimized yet? Just going by subjective symptoms?

 

[Marco N Cognito]

I think you’re most likely right and that ferritin just takes a while to replete, while serum iron is just a snapshot of how much iron you’ve taken in recently I’m pretty sure. Would something like 23 and me tell you if you have methylation issues? I think I’m gonna get one done next time they’re on sale. I think I just get labs done to often.

What NDT are you taking? And how do you know you’re not optimized yet? Just going by subjective symptoms?

23andme.com will give you what you need and more. It has been a roadmap to my genome.

I am now taking a custom compounded NDT free of fillers or binders with only ascorbic acid added (actually supposed help with T3 metabolism as a bonus). I was taking NP Thyroid and may have to resume if the compounding pharmacy runs out of raw thyroid powder again. I am fortunate to have scrips for both and in 2 different strengths so I can titrate up or down when needed.

 

[Gman86]

23andme.com will give you what you need and more. It has been a roadmap to my genome.

I am now taking a custom compounded NDT free of fillers or binders with only ascorbic acid added (actually supposed help with T3 metabolism as a bonus). I was taking NP Thyroid and may have to resume if the compounding pharmacy runs out of raw thyroid powder again. I am fortunate to have scrips for both and in 2 different strengths so I can titrate up or down when needed.

Oh so you’re getting glandular NDT just from a compounding pharmacy? Didn’t know that was an option. Thought they just compounded synthetic T4 and T3 together in the same ratio as NDT. I was thinking about switching to a synthetic T4/T3 combo from Empower, due to my difficulties getting WP thyroid lately. What are your thoughts on a synthetic compounded T4/T3 vs NDT. Would you consider it, or is there any reasons why NDT would still be better? I know for one, NDT also has T1 and T2 in small amounts. Not sure if that makes much difference though.

 

[Marco N Cognito]

Oh so you’re getting glandular NDT just from a compounding pharmacy? Didn’t know that was an option. Thought they just compounded synthetic T4 and T3 together in the same ratio as NDT. I was thinking about switching to a synthetic T4/T3 combo from Empower, due to my difficulties getting WP thyroid lately. What are your thoughts on a synthetic compounded T4/T3 vs NDT. Would you consider it, or is there any reasons why NDT would still be better? I know for one, NDT also has T1 and T2 in small amounts. Not sure if that makes much difference though.

Yes, it's the pure powder from PCCA which is the largest distributor. I actually found the source and then found a compounding pharmacy to order it and compound it for me.

I have tried every combination of thyroid meds available except for synthetic T4/T3. I don't see any reason to switch to a synthetic combo when NP Thyroid [Home - NP Thyroid] is available. It's the only commercial NDT that is not out of stock and has the fewest fillers/binders, 2nd to WP. From everything I've researched, NDT is usually always preferred over synthetic, however, some docs and their patients claim they do better on a custom T4:T3 ratio (like 16:1 as opposed to the 4:1 ratio of NDT) that is closer to that of the human thyroid gland. There is much debate over this, too long to get into here, but will post on that later.

Due to the raw material shortage, I will likely resume NP Thyroid.

 

[Gman86]

Yes, it's the pure powder from PCCA which is the largest distributor. I actually found the source and then found a compounding pharmacy to order it and compound it for me.

I have tried every combination of thyroid meds available except for synthetic T4/T3. I don't see any reason to switch to a synthetic combo when NP Thyroid is available. It's the only commercial NDT that is not out of stock and has the fewest fillers/binders, 2nd to WP. From everything I've researched, NDT is usually always preferred over synthetic, however, some docs and their patients claim they do better on a custom T4:T3 ratio (like 16:1 as opposed to the 4:1 ratio of NDT) that is closer to that of the human thyroid gland. There is much debate over this, too long to get into here, but will post on that later.

Due to the raw material shortage, I will likely resume NP Thyroid.

Thanks for all that info. Very helpful

 

[BillyJ03z]

Did a one month experiment to see whether a very low dose of thyroid medication would suppress my natural production completely, and leave me with very low thyroid levels due to my replacement dose being extremely low, or if the low dose NDT would just add to my natural endogenous levels. Turns out the ladder is mostly true. The low dose suppressed my natural levels ever so slightly, as evidenced by my slightly lower TSH. But overall, the 1/4 grain of NDT was enough to overcome the very slight suppression, and leave me with a net increase in free T3. I was also pleasantly surprised to see that my RT3 had come down slightly. Wasn’t expecting that. Was expecting it to increase slightly.

7-23-19
ON NOTHING for thyroid
T3 total - 106 (76-181)
T4 total - 6.0 (4.5-10.5)
Free T3 - 3.3 (2.3-4.2)
Free t4 - 1.0 (0.8-1.8)
Rt3 - 12 (8-25)
TSH - 0.78 (0.4-4.5)
Iron, Total - 173 (50-180)
Iron % saturation - 55% (15-60)
Iron Binding Capacity - 315 (250-425)
Ferritin - 30 (20-345)

8-28-19 On 1/4 grain WP thyroid ED in am for 1 month (LABS WERE TAKEN IN AM PRIOR TO TAKING MORNING DOSE. BASICALLY 24 HOURS AFTER LAST 1/4 GRAIN DOSE)
T3 total - 130 (76-181)
T4 total - 6.3 (4.5-10.5)
Free T3 - 3.9 (2.3-4.2)
Free t4 - 0.9 (0.8-1.8)
Rt3 - 9 (8-25)
TSH - 0.60 (0.4-4.5)
Iron, Total - 106 (50-180)
Iron % saturation - 37% (15-60)
Iron Binding Capacity - 285 (250-425)
Ferritin - 45 (20-345)

What would you guys recommend to do next? Just increase to 1/2 grain of WP thyroid? Just looking to increase free T3 a tiny bit more, and increase free T4 a little bit more, without increasing RT3 too much.

IMHO, you have the exact same Thyroid labs as me and your FT3 looks fine... I'd concentrate more on trying to get your FT4 into midrange... I experimented with 1/4 grain NDT (Armour) for about 6 months and although I didn't feel anything energy/motivation wise, I did however start dropping weight easier.. When i tested my Thyroid labs again there was really no change like yours... I've been told and researched that the Ft4 plays a part in the brain with motivation/dopamine, etc....

 

[Gman86]

IMHO, you have the exact same Thyroid labs as me and your FT3 looks fine... I'd concentrate more on trying to get your FT4 into midrange... I experimented with 1/4 grain NDT (Armour) for about 6 months and although I didn't feel anything energy/motivation wise, I did however start dropping weight easier.. When i tested my Thyroid labs again there was really no change like yours... I've been told and researched that the Ft4 plays a part in the brain with motivation/dopamine, etc....

Thanks for the feedback. Ya I’m off everything for thyroid atm. Are you still on the 1/4 grain of armour? Did you monitor your morning temp at all before and after using armour? One of the main reasons I thought my thyroid might be low on a cellular level is I’ve always had very low morning temps. Like 96.2 low I’ve heard they’re supposed to be at least mid to high 97’s when you wake up.

 

[BillyJ03z]

Thanks for the feedback. Ya I’m off everything for thyroid atm. Are you still on the 1/4 grain of armour? Did you monitor your morning temp at all before and after using armour? One of the main reasons I thought my thyroid might be low on a cellular level is I’ve always had very low morning temps. Like 96.2 low I’ve heard they’re supposed to be at least mid to high 97’s when you wake up.

Gman86, I never tested my temps (out of laziness, no motivation do so....) Atm, I am not on Thyroid anymore.... when I was taking the 1/4 grain NDT, I decided to ramp up my thyroid NDT (getting up to almost 2 grains) and when I had labs tested my FT4 and FT3, etc.. was all in toilet and I immediately stopped as I got afraid to really commit to NDT and didn't want to feel worse than I already did... the frustrating thing is that I believe I found my sweet spot with TRT dosing (40 mg eod Cyp/IM) I also use 1-1/4" 27g needle and there is zero injection pain and I rotate upper corner buttox injections.... at this level my total T is mid 500-600 and my Free is at 20-22 top range of Lab Corp labs) and E2 is low/mid 20's with no AI... I feel strong, feel I have physical energy but still lack mental energy/motivation... Still figuring out if I have Thyroid issue or Dopamine issue or both or something else??? Also, Sleep still sucks.. have hard time getting to sleep at night.. Not ready to give up on TRT just yet...

 

[BillyJ03z]

Also, I have been searching for some stimulants to help me get motivated to work out... Caffeine doesn't really do anything for me anymore... I tried modafinil about a year ago and it worked for about a month and then stopped... I tried adderall and I felt absolutely nothing... so I am thinking its a dopamine issue...

 

[JA Battle]

@Gman86

What did your 1/2 grain experiment yield for results and labs