The Case Against Antidepressants

[Charliebizz]

This was the basis for the Dr. Mariano low-dose SSRI craze and I do think it can work for this purpose. The SSRI seems to act like an "adaptogen", improving the resistance to stress and normalizing HPA function. However, the benefits are part of a larger package that includes emotional blunting, apathy, increased susceptibility to depression, personality changes, sexual dysfunction / risk of PSSD, weight gain, osteoporosis, and other negative consequences too numerous to list.

Just sign on the dotted line for relief from an overactive HPA axis:
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To play devils advocate. I’ve seen the “almost” all those things happen to people from trt also. i personally feel worse off mentally on trt vs off. Hpa shut down seems to effect is all differently.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

To play devils advocate. I’ve seen the “almost” all those things happen to people from trt also. i personally feel worse off mentally on trt vs off. Hpa shut down seems to effect is all differently.

Fair point. The difference is I (perhaps naively) believe it is possible to administer TRT in such a way that the pitfalls can be largely avoided, whereas I have enough experience to know that is not possible with SSRIs.

 

[Charliebizz]

Fair point. The difference is I (perhaps naively) believe it is possible to administer TRT in such a way that the pitfalls can be largely avoided, whereas I have enough experience to know that is not possible with SSRIs.

You don’t think dosage has a lot to do with it? I think most ssri are overdosed. I actually didn’t see any negative sides at all from 4 years of low dose lexapro. Maybe I have sides now from discontinuing ssri but I stopped 6 months into trt. And It Very well could be issues with the Shut down from trt.

ive seen many people over the years on the forums and groups complain about mild depression, and loss of zest for life. Penile sensitivity and eq issues from trt. However trt without a doubt has major positives in most too that can’t be ignored. I find myself in a really tough spot. Trt give me a better libido, nocturnal erections,better glycemic control and more resilient to working out and working in general. But my mental has been so off. Ive tried so many different protocols. I’ve dabbled in cortisol and thyroid replacement. I just can’t seem to get it right. And my fear is the shut down is the biggest factor in my mental state. The problem is figuring that out

 

[Fortunate]

You don’t think dosage has a lot to do with it? I think most ssri are overdosed. I actually didn’t see any negative sides at all from 4 years of low dose lexapro. Maybe I have sides now from discontinuing ssri but I stopped 6 months into trt. And It Very well could be issues with the Shut down from trt.

ive seen many people over the years on the forums and groups complain about mild depression, and loss of zest for life. Penile sensitivity and eq issues from trt. However trt without a doubt has major positives in most too that can’t be ignored. I find myself in a really tough spot. Trt give me a better libido, nocturnal erections,better glycemic control and more resilient to working out and working in general. But my mental has been so off. Ive tried so many different protocols. I’ve dabbled in cortisol and thyroid replacement. I just can’t seem to get it right. And my fear is the shut down is the biggest factor in my mental state. The problem is figuring that out

@Charliebizz, I feel you. Sometimes I wish I can go back in time and do things differently…

I also sometimes wonder what would happen if I went back to Natesto and just ran that for 6 to 12 months. Would I recover? I don’t know, but after a few weeks of trying this a few different times, I can’t stand feeling tired and worn down. On the other hand, side effects are minimal.

Maybe Natesto coupled with thyroid would do the trick? I don’t know, but it’s not something I’m going to try anytime soon.

Bottom line is, I can relate to your well articulated points.

 

[Charliebizz]

@Charliebizz, I feel you. Sometimes I wish I can go back in time and do things differently…

I also sometimes wonder what would happen if I went back to Natesto and just ran that for 6 to 12 months. Would I recover? I don’t know, but after a few weeks of trying this a few different times, I can’t stand feeling tired and worn down. On the other hand, side effects are minimal.

Maybe Natesto coupled with thyroid would do the trick? I don’t know, but it’s not something I’m going to try anytime soon.

Bottom line is, I can relate to your well articulated points.

My mind always goes back to thyroid for me also. Low body temps, cold intolerance, dry skin, etc… but I really still think it has something to do with cortisol for me but just don’t know how to fix that.

 

[Fortunate]

My mind always goes back to thyroid for me also. Low body temps, cold intolerance, dry skin, etc… but I really still think it has something to do with cortisol for me but just don’t know how to fix that.

You supplemented thyroid? I did it briefly based on Dr. recommendations. Wouldn’t rule out trying it again, but not sure what I think about it. What was your experience?

 

[Charliebizz]

You supplemented thyroid? I did it briefly based on Dr. recommendations. Wouldn’t rule out trying it again, but not sure what I think about it. What was your experience?

i trialed t3 years ago with dr crisler. Wasn’t a great experienc. had this weird low grade dizzy feeling l, pressure in my ears And anxiety. Then a few years ago I trialed armour didn’t really feel much. got up to 1.5 grains and started to get wicked headaches. So I ditched It. Then I did a real short trial with t4 (Not long enough) got In my head about it and bailed. It’s hard for me to commit cause my thyroid numbers are pretty good. And trt actually made them better. I know numbers aren’t end all be all. But even though some people say taking thyroid is safer and easier since then t. I just don’t know if that’s true. most people I know in my life that are on thyroid hate it and always messing around with it.

 

[Systemlord]

@FunkOdyssey whats your take away from these study. Might be better ones. But these 2 are talking about the possibility of restoring hpa. That I think is my biggest problem and one of the reasons I tried ssri with trt.

Pharmacological Treatment of Anxiety Disorders: The Role of the HPA Axis

Implication of the hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal axis in the physiopathology of depression

Hpa shut down seems to effect is all differently.

I have heard some guys say they can't get erections when LH is suppressed, the moment they stop TRT things are quite different.

The majority of men don't have problems, it's the outliers who do have issues.

 

[Charliebizz]

I have heard some guys say they can't get erections when LH is suppressed, the moment they stop TRT things are quite different.

The majority of men don't have problems, it's the outliers who do have issues.

Agreed. Thats The most frustrating part for me is I get great libido and erections with higher doses. But feel worse physically and mentally.

I do think cream would have worked for me but possible the sky high dht ends up problematic. I’m usually great the first 3-4 days in cream then I start to feel fatigue abd get angry Easy. Also depressed moods.

 

[Hyrulewarrior1978]

Agreed. Thats The most frustrating part for me is I get great libido and erections with higher doses. But feel worse physically and mentally.

I do think cream would have worked for me but possible the sky high dht ends up problematic. I’m usually great the first 3-4 days in cream then I start to feel fatigue abd get angry Easy. Also depressed moods.

Why did you stop the lexapro if it was working for you?

 

[Charliebizz]

Why did you stop the lexapro if it was working for you?

I was always worried about long term side effects of ssri. I was also bing some lingering energy issues and harder to lose weight. it’s really hard to put my finger on the cause of my current problems. They all started somewhere around the time I got off ssri. But I also was on trt only 6 months. Would it have happened anyway even if I stayed on ssri not sure. Is it trt? are my levels too high for me? Is it the shut down? is it all unrelated ? Who really knows

 

[tareload]

Antidepressant use and risk of adverse outcomes: population-based cohort study | BJPsych Open | Cambridge Core

Antidepressant use and risk of adverse outcomes: population-based cohort study - Volume 8 Issue 5

www.cambridge.org

 

[Charliebizz]

Antidepressant use and risk of adverse outcomes: population-based cohort study | BJPsych Open | Cambridge Core

Antidepressant use and risk of adverse outcomes: population-based cohort study - Volume 8 Issue 5

www.cambridge.org

View attachment 25913

Seems to me that study is full of holes. One statement for example “Moreover, it was not possible to distinguish between the effects of antidepressants and depression itself. Our fully adjusted model at 10-year follow-up” few other statements I could quote.

they also never mention dose. dosage matter in many medications, when it comes to short and long term side effects. Do you guys think dosage matters at all? I know personally I had no side effects that I was aware of on low dose lexapro. High dose paxil I had major weight gain. And trouble reaching orgasm.

the point I’m trying to make is I think ssri might be over dosed. I could be off base because I’m not sure how much “reuptake” is blocked based off dosage. But could it be something similar to how people encounter side effects when they take too much testosterone?

 

[tareload]

What I have learnt from helping thousands of people taper off antidepressants and other psychotropic medications

Although psychiatric drug withdrawal syndromes have been recognized since the 1950s – recent studies confirm antidepressant withdrawal syndrome incidence upwards of 40% – medical information about how to safely go off the drugs has been ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

As psychotropic post-acute withdrawal symptoms do, mine fluctuated and mutated,28,32,33 including 1.5 years of crippling muscle pain and spasms. I could not tolerate drugs, I was hyper-reactive to anything that was neuroactive, even vitamin supplements.34 I joined paxilprogress.org, an online community, to find support.9 In my fourth year of protracted withdrawal syndrome (PWS), I was fortunate to be treated by a psychiatrist with tiny doses of lamotrigine, up to 1.5 mg, to stabilize my nervous system.27 Still, my recovery was extremely gradual; ultimately, I experienced 11 years of PWS,32,35,36 the latter half housebound and unable to work, which destroyed my career in information system design as well as my relationships. When I recovered, I was a white-haired retiree.

Counseling cases like mine every day, I do not want more people to suffer as I suffered.

 

[tareload]

Seems to me that study is full of holes. One statement for example “Moreover, it was not possible to distinguish between the effects of antidepressants and depression itself. Our fully adjusted model at 10-year follow-up” few other statements I could quote.

they also never mention dose. dosage matter in many medications, when it comes to short and long term side effects. Do you guys think dosage matters at all? I know personally I had no side effects that I was aware of on low dose lexapro. High dose paxil I had major weight gain. And trouble reaching orgasm.

the point I’m trying to make is I think ssri might be over dosed. I could be off base because I’m not sure how much “reuptake” is blocked based off dosage. But could it be something similar to how people encounter side effects when they take too much testosterone?

I could post many papers about clearance and how this affects withdrawal symptoms. Many who experience withdrawal symptoms appear to have higher serum levels of ADs for a given dose.

Fair points on association vs correlation vs causation.

 

[tareload]

I know FunkOdyssey was going to comment on this one from other thread. Enjoy.

Our RCT Fetish: How the “Gold Standard” for Research Has Led to A Societal Delusion About the Merits of Antidepressants

While RCTs show that antidepressants provide a statistically significant benefit, there is a large pool of evidence that tells of harm done

www.madinamerica.com

 

[Hyrulewarrior1978]

I know FunkOdyssey was going to comment on this one from other thread. Enjoy.

Our RCT Fetish: How the “Gold Standard” for Research Has Led to A Societal Delusion About the Merits of Antidepressants

While RCTs show that antidepressants provide a statistically significant benefit, there is a large pool of evidence that tells of harm done

www.madinamerica.com

So are you still taking Lexi after reading all the horror stories? Lol. Imo the ssris are pretty harmless.

 

[tareload]

So are you still taking Lexi after reading all the horror stories? Lol. Imo the ssris are pretty harmless.

Why would you LoL? What do you find humorous?

 

[Hyrulewarrior1978]

Why would you LoL? What do you find humorous?

I just thought that you might stop the lexapro after reading the stories. Hopefully you can see past the bullshit that’s out there.

 

[tareload]

Hopefully you can see past the bullshit that’s out there.

Glad you got it figured out. I hope one day to reach that level of enlightenment. Thanks for the hope.