Testosterone plus Nandrolone = Estrogen overload?

[Fortunate]

@bixt and @readalot, I tend to agree with @Gman86. Based on your prior posts, you are obviously educated. But, I think you can be erudite without being condescending, especially when it’s obvious the guy on the other side of the discussion does not have a scientific background.

I don’t like bro science any more than you do, but I don’t perceive @Gman86 as someone trying to push an agenda. I see him as a guy just trying to learn.

 

[Fortunate]

Really I believe the guys who feel well on Cabergoline are enjoying it for the better sex and orgasms. Just about anyone could take it and see that for themselves in less than a day. Until one day they find out that they are playing with fire when comes to their immune system and maybe heart if they abuse it or don’t truly need it.

I do take ND and have continuously since I started. I split my injections up and do each weekday and I have zero problems to report. I really have nothing but positive things to say about it.

I’m not concerned about dopamine for myself. I have the genes for significantly more dopamine receptors and available dopamine than the average person, so it’s almost always at an increased level for me. I take other things to manipulate dopamine and for cognitive improvement and “self-care”. Speaking of dopamine, there is a great book on it that Nelson showed me last weekend when I visited. The Molecule of More.

I used nandrolone in very small doses and stopped before I could draw any conclusions. Do you mind sharing your protocol for test and nandrolone?

 

[tareload]

I’ve been on nandrolone for quite a long time now as well, and can’t think of any negative issues to report from it either

From ur research, does nandrolone effect dopamine negatively at all? I don’t think I’ve come across anything to support that nandrolone effects dopamine in any negative ways. Have u?

Emphasis is mine.

Take a look at the links I posted above. The effect of ND on neurotransmitters/neurotoxicity is reviewed in the literature therein. The best way I can compare the feeling on ND is that it is similar to LDN, which I tried. Look up Naltrexone if you want to understand how it works (mechanism of action). Does everyone have my experience on LDN, absolutely not.

IMO every study done on hormones are either flawed or corrupt, or both, so studies to me are just people’s extrapolations and opinions on them, so it’s hard for me to put too much weight into them. But obv they’re still important and quality data can be gained from them at times, so I’ll definitely check out the links u posted

Adjusting my dose down for longterm health reasons, will it lead to muscle loss?

That's pretty much it -- then, retest your ferritin to confirm that it's back to pre-donation level. The times of taking are crucial, as is avoiding Vitamins C and D (while you're doing this). No dose skipping either! For people just jumping in: the explanation is here...

www.excelmale.com

For those that want to read and are open to new information see link above.

 

[tareload]

I don’t like bro science any more than you do, but I don’t perceive @Gman86 as someone trying to push an agenda. I see him as a guy just trying to learn.

Fair enough. See post above. I hope he'll start to read the relevant literature in addition to cataloging anecdotes.

You make a good point but I tend not to appreciate people (my shortcoming) who contribute to the bullshit asymmetry principle (it creates a lot of work for others) and feel little to no remorse after someone tries to help educate them:

High Hematocrit Erectile Function

https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/article/34/suppl_1/4461/2862513 Saw this article which links Hematocrit to blood pressure and interfering with nitric oxide production. Anyone had improved erections from donating blood?

www.excelmale.com

High Hematocrit Erectile Function

https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/article/34/suppl_1/4461/2862513 Saw this article which links Hematocrit to blood pressure and interfering with nitric oxide production. Anyone had improved erections from donating blood?

www.excelmale.com

 

[Fortunate]

Fair enough. See post above. I hope he'll start to read the relevant literature in addition to cataloging anecdotes.

You may a good point but I tend not to appreciate people who contribute to the bullshit asymmetry principle (it creates a lot of work for others) and feel little to no remorse after someone tries to help educate them:

High Hematocrit Erectile Function

https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/article/34/suppl_1/4461/2862513 Saw this article which links Hematocrit to blood pressure and interfering with nitric oxide production. Anyone had improved erections from donating blood?

www.excelmale.com

High Hematocrit Erectile Function

https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/article/34/suppl_1/4461/2862513 Saw this article which links Hematocrit to blood pressure and interfering with nitric oxide production. Anyone had improved erections from donating blood?

www.excelmale.com

I fully agree that when good science is available, we can't ignore it. I am just saying let's be civil. @Gman86, I think it's extremely important not to wholesale discount scientific information simply because it was derived from a research "study". Without research, we would all die from strep throat and diabetes. When possible, we need to look at the best available information. When there is no good information, it is OK to consider others' anecdotes, but it is outright dangerous to discount information simply because it came from a scientific study. I take a pretty strong stance on the matter here, here, and here.

 

[Gman86]

No I definitely take some scientific evidence into consideration. It obv has a ton of value. It’s basically the same as anecdotal evidence, u just need a lot of common sense and good critical thinking skills to be able to decipher what’s valuable and what’s not.

 

[tareload]

No I definitely take some scientific evidence into consideration. It obv has a ton of value. It’s basically the same as anecdotal evidence, u just need a lot of common sense and good critical thinking skills to be able to decipher what’s valuable and what’s not.

I don’t like bro science any more than you do, but I don’t perceive @Gman86 as someone trying to push an agenda. I see him as a guy just trying to learn.

Insert appropriate emoji here ...__________

Hope everyone has a great Monday or whatever day it is where you reside. Take care.

 

[Gman86]

Fair enough. See post above. I hope he'll start to read the relevant literature in addition to cataloging anecdotes.

You make a good point but I tend not to appreciate people (my shortcoming) who contribute to the bullshit asymmetry principle (it creates a lot of work for others) and feel little to no remorse after someone tries to help educate them:

High Hematocrit Erectile Function

https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/article/34/suppl_1/4461/2862513 Saw this article which links Hematocrit to blood pressure and interfering with nitric oxide production. Anyone had improved erections from donating blood?

www.excelmale.com

High Hematocrit Erectile Function

https://academic.oup.com/eurheartj/article/34/suppl_1/4461/2862513 Saw this article which links Hematocrit to blood pressure and interfering with nitric oxide production. Anyone had improved erections from donating blood?

www.excelmale.com

I know exactly what ur saying, and u have a good point. What’s interesting is that just like crappy anecdotes can get passed around and then the crappy info is taken as gospel and passed around as such, the same thing can happen with findings from studies. A crappy study can result in certain info that ends up getting passed around and eventually it becomes gospel, just because it originated from a study. So like I said in my other reply, what’s really important is having common sense, good critical thinking skills, and obv a good knowledge base on the subject to reference anytime new info comes in

 

[Gman86]

@readalot so how is ND similar to LDN for u? Does LDN give u high cortisol symptoms? Does LDN raise cortisol?

And do u think the negative effect of ND on neurotransmitters and it being neurotoxic, as shown in the links u referenced, could possibly due to the extreme lack of E2 in a persons system whenever they use nandrolone by itself? I’m not saying that’s the reason ND was shown to have these negative effects, I’m just asking if in ur opinion it’s a possibility. From the studies I’ve seen on men with extremely low E2 levels, I’ve seen the exact same negative effects, so I’m jc how we can attribute those effects to the nandrolone directly, and not attribute them to the lack of E2 when using ND by itself. Again, not saying this is what’s going on, I’m jw how we can attribute these effects to ND directly

 

[Fortunate]

Insert appropriate emoji here ...__________

Hope everyone has a great Monday or whatever day it is where you reside. Take care.

I get it (wink emoji)

 

[tareload]

@readalot so how is ND similar to LDN for u? Does LDN give u high cortisol symptoms? Does LDN raise cortisol?

And do u think the negative effect of ND on neurotransmitters and it being neurotoxic, as shown in the links u referenced, could possibly due to the extreme lack of E2 in a persons system whenever they use nandrolone by itself? I’m not saying that’s the reason ND was shown to have these negative effects, I’m just asking if in ur opinion it’s a possibility. From the studies I’ve seen on men with extremely low E2 levels, I’ve seen the exact same negative effects, so I’m jc how we can attribute those effects to the nandrolone directly, and not attribute them to the lack of E2 when using ND by itself. Again, not saying this is what’s going on, I’m jw how we can attribute these effects to ND directly

I'll try to get you a thoughtful answer in the coming days on some of this (maybe). I've answered some of your questions regarding my personal experience and E2 management while on ND a few times.

nandrolone- atrophy in quads? Also, legalities and terminology

I’ve been on 25mg Anavar daily for 2 weeks, and it’s awesome. Strength is going up during each workout. I started BPC today for a nagging back injury. I am turned off by Deca’s reported side effects What’s the rest of ur protocol look like?

www.excelmale.com

nandrolone- atrophy in quads? Also, legalities and terminology

I’ve been on 25mg Anavar daily for 2 weeks, and it’s awesome. Strength is going up during each workout. I started BPC today for a nagging back injury. I am turned off by Deca’s reported side effects What’s the rest of ur protocol look like?

www.excelmale.com

Adjusting my dose down for longterm health reasons, will it lead to muscle loss?

That's pretty much it -- then, retest your ferritin to confirm that it's back to pre-donation level. The times of taking are crucial, as is avoiding Vitamins C and D (while you're doing this). No dose skipping either! For people just jumping in: the explanation is here...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Fortunate]

There are a number of nandrolone threads, but this one seems to be more active than others lately, so this is a question to anyone with experience with nandrolone.

There are tons of anecdotes (seems like more bad than good) about nandrolone. My question is regarding the unintended consequences of elevated DHT, specifically as it relates to acne. I am currently on Xyosted 100mg/week and hCG 100IU daily. I know, the weekly injection goes against the grain, but it seems to be working for now. Prior to this, I was on Natesto. I think I started Xyosted at pretty hypo levels based on some recent labs and the way I have felt. As I get deeper into this regimen, I am noticing more and more acne that has been difficult to treat. Some of it is also likely due to constant mask wearing.

I had a similar experience with Xyosted in the past: Over time, acne increased to the point I used an antibiotic. In any case, my question is a simple one: To those of you who have used nandrolone, have you noticed less issues with acne (and hair loss, for that matter)? It makes sense to me that this would be the case, but I am looking for real world feedback.

@Gman86, @Nelson Vergel, any comments? Also, Nelson, I read you did very well on nandrolone for a long time. I can't remember if you have answered this already, but why did you stop it?

@readalot, I highly respect your opinion. While unrelated to the question in this post, I am curious how long it took you to develop anhedonia on nandrolone? Did it eventually get better? How long did it take?

Thanks, everyone.

 

[Gman86]

There are a number of nandrolone threads, but this one seems to be more active than others lately, so this is a question to anyone with experience with nandrolone.

There are tons of anecdotes (seems like more bad than good) about nandrolone. My question is regarding the unintended consequences of elevated DHT, specifically as it relates to acne. I am currently on Xyosted 100mg/week and hCG 100IU daily. I know, the weekly injection goes against the grain, but it seems to be working for now. Prior to this, I was on Natesto. I think I started Xyosted at pretty hypo levels based on some recent labs and the way I have felt. As I get deeper into this regimen, I am noticing more and more acne that has been difficult to treat. Some of it is also likely due to constant mask wearing.

I had a similar experience with Xyosted in the past: Over time, acne increased to the point I used an antibiotic. In any case, my question is a simple one: To those of you who have used nandrolone, have you noticed less issues with acne (and hair loss, for that matter)? It makes sense to me that this would be the case, but I am looking for real world feedback.

@Gman86, @Nelson Vergel, any comments? Also, Nelson, I read you did very well on nandrolone for a long time. I can't remember if you have answered this already, but why did you stop it?

@readalot, I highly respect your opinion. While unrelated to the question in this post, I am curious how long it took you to develop anhedonia on nandrolone? Did it eventually get better? How long did it take?

Thanks, everyone.

It’s debatable whether high E2 can cause acne or not. Some say it has nothing to do with it, but I’ve just seen way too many anecdotes of men using an ai and their acne completely going away. I had pretty bad inner arm acne not too long ago, and it completely went away after starting an ai. I stopped the ai recently and the acne hasn’t returned, so not sure if it would of ended up going away without the ai or not. I just know that very shortly after starting the ai my inner arm acne completely cleared up. We also know that high DHT can cause acne. So one of the first things I would do if I were u is check ur progesterone level. Most men on test have very low progesterone levels, due to most of our prog being produced in our testicles, and our testicles being shut down by taking exogenous test. Prog controls the conversion of test into E2 and DHT. If u do in fact have low levels of prog, like most of us do on TRT, I would get ur prog levels optimized

U can also try supplementing with zinc. It’s supposed to be a natural ai. I’ve also read that it can inhibit DHT

The #1 thing I would do tho is increase ur retinol intake. The most popular and effective acne medication is accutane, which is just very high dose vitamin A. Unless ur eating organs, like our ancestors did for most of our evolution, ur gonna be like the majority of the population and be deficient in retinol. The best source of it is beef liver. So if u want to clear up acne, the #1 thing u can do is either eat grassfed beef liver, or take a desiccated grassfed beef liver supplement, as try to increase ur retinol intake from other food sources as well

 

[Fortunate]

It’s debatable whether high E2 can cause acne or not. Some say it has nothing to do with it, but I’ve just seen way too many anecdotes of men using an ai and their acne completely going away. I had pretty bad inner arm acne not too long ago, and it completely went away after starting an ai. I stopped the ai recently and the acne hasn’t returned, so not sure if it would of ended up going away without the ai or not. I just know that very shortly after starting the ai my inner arm acne completely cleared up. We also know that high DHT can cause acne. So one of the first things I would do if I were u is check ur progesterone level. Most men on test have very low progesterone levels, due to most of our prog being produced in our testicles, and our testicles being shut down by taking exogenous test. Prog controls the conversion of test into E2 and DHT. If u do in fact have low levels of prog, like most of us do on TRT, I would get ur prog levels optimized

U can also try supplementing with zinc. It’s supposed to be a natural ai. I’ve also read that it can inhibit DHT

The #1 thing I would do tho is increase ur retinol intake. The most popular and effective acne medication is accutane, which is just very high dose vitamin A. Unless ur eating organs, like our ancestors did for most of our evolution, ur gonna be like the majority of the population and be deficient in retinol. The best source of it is beef liver. So if u want to clear up acne, the #1 thing u can do is either eat grassfed beef liver, or take a desiccated grassfed beef liver supplement, as try to increase ur retinol intake from other food sources as well

Hah! I'd get off TRT before agreeing to eating organs!

I use topical retinoids with decent success. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Gman86]

Hah! I'd get off TRT before agreeing to eating organs!

I use topical retinoids with decent success. Thanks for your thoughts.

Haha can’t blame ya on that one. I cut up raw beef heart and raw beef liver into tiny pieces, scoop it up with a spoon, put it in my mouth, and then wash it down with water. Don’t cook, chew or taste it. I don’t like the taste of them either. But they’re unfortunately necessary for optimal health. If u don’t like the taste, they have desiccated versions in capsules. Just swallow them down like a multivitamin. No taste or smell to them at all

 

[bixt]

Cant comment on Nandrolone, but there is another 19-Nor called MENT or Trestolone. I have seen a couple threads on this compound in this very forum. (There are 4 19-nors I am aware of. 3 injectables: Deca, tren, ment and Methyltrienolone\Metribolone, an oral drug). Alleged benefits from the anecdotes of BBers are that ment has the benefits of both trenbolone and nandrolone without the side effects. Immense libido and sense of well being are the ones which caught my attention.

So I have been playing with this compound. It aromatises into a potent form of estradiol called methyl estradiol. The MENT I have is of the acetate ester, extremely short half life and daily injections are mandatory. On and off over the past couple months I have tested dosages like 2mg, 5mg ED shallow IM delts. Some study I read says just under 1mg a day is the replacement dose for TRT. It's 10 times more potent than testosterone mg for mg.

The main thing I notice is that acne starts to form everywhere. Head, shin, earlobe, bum, back. If I either stop the trestolone OR use 1/4 or 1/2 an arimidex, within 2 days, they stop paining and go away. If start the ment again with no AI, then these pimples start again. This experience has been repeated a few times.

Since the AI solves the issue, in my case, I think the methyl estadiol is the culprit. Per the BB community, there is wide speculation that it does not show up on E2 tests and therefore the levels are unable to be tested currently.

On the other hand I have experimented with various DHT compounds such as stanozolol, drostanolone and mesterolone at various doses and no hint of acne whatsover.

Why do I mention this in a nandrolone thread? To continue the discussion on estradiol\dht vs acne and provide my anecdote in favour of, yes, high estradiol (or methyl estradiol in this case) appears to cause acne (in me) and DHT compounds do not (in me).

 

[Fortunate]

Cant comment on Nandrolone, but there is another 19-Nor called MENT or Trestolone. I have seen a couple threads on this compound in this very forum. (There are 4 19-nors I am aware of. 3 injectables: Deca, tren, ment and Methyltrienolone\Metribolone, an oral drug). Alleged benefits from the anecdotes of BBers are that ment has the benefits of both trenbolone and nandrolone without the side effects. Immense libido and sense of well being are the ones which caught my attention.

So I have been playing with this compound. It aromatises into a potent form of estradiol called methyl estradiol. The MENT I have is of the acetate ester, extremely short half life and daily injections are mandatory. On and off over the past couple months I have tested dosages like 2mg, 5mg ED shallow IM delts. Some study I read says just under 1mg a day is the replacement dose for TRT. It's 10 times more potent than testosterone mg for mg.

The main thing I notice is that acne starts to form everywhere. Head, shin, earlobe, bum, back. If I either stop the trestolone OR use 1/4 or 1/2 an arimidex, within 2 days, they stop paining and go away. If start the ment again with no AI, then these pimples start again. This experience has been repeated a few times.

Since the AI solves the issue, in my case, I think the methyl estadiol is the culprit. Per the BB community, there is wide speculation that it does not show up on E2 tests and therefore the levels are unable to be tested currently.

On the other hand I have experimented with various DHT compounds such as stanozolol, drostanolone and mesterolone at various doses and no hint of acne whatsover.

Why do I mention this in a nandrolone thread? To continue the discussion on estradiol\dht vs acne and provide my anecdote in favour of, yes, high estradiol (or methyl estradiol in this case) appears to cause acne (in me) and DHT compounds do not (in me).

This is actually very useful. Anyone out there with more observations on acne, feel free to post. I am happy to create a separate thread if there is enough interest.

 

[tareload]

@readalot, I highly respect your opinion. While unrelated to the question in this post, I am curious how long it took you to develop anhedonia on nandrolone? Did it eventually get better? How long did it take?

Noticeable after 4-6 weeks on and really kicked in after week 10. We don't really know how long the metabolites of ND stick around (a good while) but after 3 months off I noticed a difference and 9 months later I was pretty much back to my critical, manageably depressed norm .

For the record, LDN brings on these symptoms for me much quicker (within a week or two).

 

[tareload]

Cant comment on Nandrolone, but there is another 19-Nor called MENT or Trestolone. I have seen a couple threads on this compound in this very forum. (There are 4 19-nors I am aware of. 3 injectables: Deca, tren, ment and Methyltrienolone\Metribolone, an oral drug). Alleged benefits from the anecdotes of BBers are that ment has the benefits of both trenbolone and nandrolone without the side effects. Immense libido and sense of well being are the ones which caught my attention.

So I have been playing with this compound. It aromatises into a potent form of estradiol called methyl estradiol. The MENT I have is of the acetate ester, extremely short half life and daily injections are mandatory. On and off over the past couple months I have tested dosages like 2mg, 5mg ED shallow IM delts. Some study I read says just under 1mg a day is the replacement dose for TRT. It's 10 times more potent than testosterone mg for mg.

The main thing I notice is that acne starts to form everywhere. Head, shin, earlobe, bum, back. If I either stop the trestolone OR use 1/4 or 1/2 an arimidex, within 2 days, they stop paining and go away. If start the ment again with no AI, then these pimples start again. This experience has been repeated a few times.

Since the AI solves the issue, in my case, I think the methyl estadiol is the culprit. Per the BB community, there is wide speculation that it does not show up on E2 tests and therefore the levels are unable to be tested currently.

On the other hand I have experimented with various DHT compounds such as stanozolol, drostanolone and mesterolone at various doses and no hint of acne whatsover.

Why do I mention this in a nandrolone thread? To continue the discussion on estradiol\dht vs acne and provide my anecdote in favour of, yes, high estradiol (or methyl estradiol in this case) appears to cause acne (in me) and DHT compounds do not (in me).

Nice post and that's the rub with MENT (and why we won't see it as a male contraceptive):

Aromatization of 7 alpha-methyl-19-nortestosterone by human placental microsomes in vitro - PubMed

Part of the biological effects of testosterone (T) are mediated by its enzymatic reduction to 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) or aromatization to estradiol (E2). 7 alpha-Methyl-19-nortestosterone (MENT) is a synthetic androgen that is considerably more potent than T. Previous studies have...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Putting men on a synthetic estrogen probably not a great idea (just like women):

Male Contraception with MENT

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.2164/jandrol.107.002683#b26 There was a small but significant elevation of systolic blood pressure in the MENT group with no change in the testosterone group. A similar finding was reported in a previous study investigating MENT alone (von...

forums.t-nation.com

Male Contraception with MENT

bingo, Trestolone converts to 7α-Methylestradiol - Wikipedia Estradiol also lowers blood pressure in several animal models of hypertensive, including SHR [63], stroke prone SHR (SHRSP; [64]), rats with deoxycortisterone acetate-salt induced hypertension [65], Dahl salt-sensitive rats [66]...

forums.t-nation.com

 

[Gman86]

Noticeable after 4-6 weeks on and really kicked in after week 10. We don't really know how long the metabolites of ND stick around (a good while) but after 3 months off I noticed a difference and 9 months later I was pretty much back to my critical, manageably depressed norm .

For the record, LDN brings on these symptoms for me much quicker (within a week or two).

Does LDN increase cortisol?