T Propionate protocol

[FunkOdyssey]

Don't underestimate the peak on prop. It will surprise you how much higher it goes than medium esters like cyp and enan.

I have experimented a lot on prop-only. 8mg daily peaked me at 1200 TT. By the feel of it, 10mg was at least 1400. I cannot imagine 20mg daily

The peak is probably not increasing proportionally to dose -- as the size of the oil depot increases, absorption should start slowing down.

I'm back on IM prop, and my previous conclusions about IM vs SC were confounded by the large amount of residual cypionate in my system when I first tried IM prop. I'm doing fine on 10 mg IM right now. So, don't take anything I say seriously unless I've been on the protocol for a good while.

 

[Jerajera]

I have experimented a lot on prop-only. 8mg daily peaked me at 1200 TT

How long after injection did you test?

 

[Willyt]

How long after injection did you test?

4 hours after injection per @Cataceous suggestion. That window of 4-5 hours post-injection is also when I feel the most charged up on Prop.

 

[Willyt]

The peak is probably not increasing proportionally to dose -- as the size of the oil depot increases, absorption should start slowing down.

That is possible, but the depot is so small compared to 1x or 2x week injection. I can definitely feel difference between 8 and 10mg on Prop. Like the waitress poured me that extra cup of coffee.

It will be interesting to hear your observations on 10mg daily once you settle in. Prop-only just too much of a wild ride for me although I was on it for almost a year. It has its strong points

 

[Forty2]

Don't underestimate the peak on prop. It will surprise you how much higher it goes than medium esters like cyp and enan.

I have experimented a lot on prop-only. 8mg daily peaked me at 1200 TT. By the feel of it, 10mg was at least 1400. I cannot imagine 20mg daily

Have you tried test no ester in oil?
I'd be curious to know peak T levels after 5mg and how many times a day it would need to be injected to prevent T level going back to baseline?

 

[Willyt]

Have you tried test no ester in oil?
I'd be curious to know peak T levels after 5mg and how many times a day it would need to be injected to prevent T level going back to baseline?

I have not but it would be interesting to try. There quite a few threads about TNE. I seem to recall someone pointing to study showing that even TNE stays in system too long to avoid HPTA suppression unlike nasal gel

I am always apprehensive to buy product outside of normal channels though. Too bad Defy doesn't prescribe it

 

[Fortunate]

Revisiting the blend concept. Is anyone out there doing well in addition to @Cataceous on a blend of propionate and enanthate?

 

[Forty2]

I have not but it would be interesting to try. There quite a few threads about TNE. I seem to recall someone pointing to study showing that even TNE stays in system too long to avoid HPTA suppression unlike nasal gel

I am always apprehensive to buy product outside of normal channels though. Too bad Defy doesn't prescribe it

After I posted my question, readalot posted a study suggesting that TNE in oil, as opposed to test suspension is degraded very soon after administration, so is not suitable.
Test base dissolved in DMSO and applied transdermally would likely be a much better option, similar to nasal gel.

 

[tareload]

readalot posted a study suggesting that TNE in oil, as opposed to test suspension is degraded very soon

My takeaway was that TNE in oil was eliminated very soon after administration. Hence it may be suitable to use and avoid hpta suppression. TNE in water suspension seems to behave like test Prop in oil or even a little slower elimination. That was my read. Interested in others takeaways as well.

 

[Forty2]

My takeaway was that TNE in oil was eliminated very soon after administration. Hence it may be suitable to use and avoid hpta suppression. TNE in water suspension seems to behave like test Prop in oil or even a little slower elimination. That was my read. Interested in others takeaways as well.

You could well be right that TNE in oil may be suitable to avoid hpta suppression, however, it may eliminated so fast after administration that it is useless even for a temporary libido boost.
The study didn't state how quickly it gets degraded.

 

[Cataceous]

Revisiting the blend concept. Is anyone out there doing well in addition to @Cataceous on a blend of propionate and enanthate?

I believe @Blackhawk has some promising early results.

You could well be right that TNE in oil may be suitable to avoid hpta suppression, however, it may eliminated so fast after administration that it is useless even for a temporary libido boost.
The study didn't state how quickly it gets degraded.

My bet is that the half-life is somewhat longer than that of Natesto. For me, a small 1-3 mg isolated dose added to a normal TRT protocol produces a nice boost that day and even for the next couple days. I don't think it's due to the testosterone persisting, but the perturbation itself does do something interesting. Continuing with daily dosing doesn't lengthen the effect; it still goes away after a couple days.

 

[Forty2]

I believe @Blackhawk has some promising early results.


My bet is that the half-life is somewhat longer than that of Natesto. For me, a small 1-3 mg isolated dose added to a normal TRT protocol produces a nice boost that day and even for the next couple days. I don't think it's due to the testosterone persisting, but the perturbation itself does do something interesting. Continuing with daily dosing doesn't lengthen the effect; it still goes away after a couple days.

Interesting, thanks.
I wonder if someone with low normal testosterone and not on TRT could use a small dose such as 5mg of TNE in oil in the morning once or twice a week and avoid suppression?

 

[Cataceous]

Interesting, thanks.
I wonder if someone with low normal testosterone and not on TRT could use a small dose such as 5mg of TNE in oil in the morning once or twice a week and avoid suppression?

It seems likely that significant suppression would be avoided, given the long trough periods. Two or three milligrams would be even safer. But I wonder if there would be enough benefit to make it worthwhile?

 

[Willyt]

I recently noticed that Empower carries testosterone troches. Not much information on the website but might be worth exploring with Defy.

Testosterone Troches | Empower Pharmacy Compounding

Testosterone Troches are available with a prescription through Empower Pharmacy. We offer a wide variety of Hormone Replacement products. Learn more about.

www.empowerpharmacy.com

I need to look back at @readalot posting on troches study

 

[tareload]

I recently noticed that Empower carries testosterone troches. Not much information on the website but might be worth exploring with Defy.

Testosterone Troches | Empower Pharmacy Compounding

Testosterone Troches are available with a prescription through Empower Pharmacy. We offer a wide variety of Hormone Replacement products. Learn more about.

www.empowerpharmacy.com

I need to look back at @readalot posting on troches study

Defy prescribes then through multiple pharmacies. Very nice alternative to nasal gel if you really put the time and effort into understanding and practicing proper buccal administration.

 

[bixt]

OK guys, this thread has got me excited, so I will be your guinea pig. I bought a vial of UGL 100mg/ml prop last night (sorry, that's the only prop I can get in my country).

Am currently doing perfectly fine on IM cyp in every way (and with pretty much any protocol) but my sleep is meh, wake up with a "hangover". This happens with doses >100mg and gets worse as dose increases, all the way to 500mg. Too much stimulation of the CNS during sleep is the cause. I do however want the larger doses especially for muscular, recovery and hypersexual purposes (all "nice to have" but not strictly "need to have" things).

My main reason then for doing this prop experiment is to get a high peak in the day (and I don't care if it is (actually preferably want) 2-3x supra), and hopefully drop quite low at night allowing me to sleep deeper. So in theory the prop solo could allow me the best of both worlds, at least to some extent.

I will be starting with 20mg daily subq AM, which is 140mg\week (0.2ml \ day). Have done shallow IM quads\delts with this same brand before and the PIP is significant even when blended 50% with cyp, hence I am going subq

Please allow me a few more days to wash out existing cyp in my system before starting (have already not injected 3 days). I will report back.

I will abandon this experiment should I develop any welts, painful lumps, systemic allergic reactions to prop subq, crippling pain etc.

As promised, I am reporting back a summary of my experiment. Objective was deeper sleep. Dose is 20mg daily AM subq into upper bum fat pad.

Sleep (main objective): Total failure. Sleep is WORSE than cypionate. Completely decimated. Like using Tren. No issue getting to sleep but waking up 2am and then having this in-between sleep wakeful state (lets call it stage 1/2 sleep). Feels like a total lack of deep stage 3-4 sleep. Will discuss further in the concluding paragraph.

Libido: Was never my objective (libido was ok on cyp). So I was shocked to see my libido go up to 11. Rock hard diamond titanium erections, anytime all the time. Everything looks hot. Sometimes problematically and inappropriately so.

Gym performance (weights): Excellent. Better than cyp of 70-200mg. "feels like" 500mg cyp. Am making many PRs.

Gains \ muscle fullness (looks wise): Excellent. Better than cyp of 70-200mg. "looks like" 500mg cyp or even better. Strange.

Cardio ability (especially jogging): Excellent. Again, better than cyp of 70-200mg. Could be due to below point on water retention.

Water retention: Now I understand what people mean when they say prop is "dry". Ankle water us gone. I can jog properly again without pain! Yet scale weight is up, so I have an increase in lean mass.

Laziness, lethargy, drive and aggression: Less lazy than cyp and more aggression and drive.

Conclusion and way forward:

In light of the multitude of benefits, I am continuing with the prop forever. Yet the sleep issue is devastating. So therefore my focus is now on resolving the sleep issues caused by it. Have played with low dose diazepam (1/4 or 1/2 of a 5mg tablet), a few drinks in the evening, MK677, various antihistamines in high dose, melatonin etc etc etc. All the usual bodybuilder "trensomnia" remedies (even though this is not tren) All work to some extent. Please, no doomsday comments on the diazepam. It was a temporary trial which is over.

Will lower prop dose to 15mg daily (105mg / week) and then 10mg daily and also spend more time with MK-677 which is the safest of all of the above options. If I can get deep sleep with a lower dose of prop without needing to resort to any sleeping aids, I am willing to compromise to some extent on the benefits of the prop. Will eventually report back on that outcome, going to need a while to get the perfect balance.

Please fire away with any questions you may have.

 

[tareload]

As promised, I am reporting back a summary of my experiment. Objective was deeper sleep. Dose is 20mg daily AM subq into upper bum fat pad.

Sleep (main objective): Total failure. Sleep is WORSE than cypionate. Completely decimated. Like using Tren. No issue getting to sleep but waking up 2am and then having this in-between sleep wakeful state (lets call it stage 1/2 sleep). Feels like a total lack of deep stage 3-4 sleep. Will discuss further in the concluding paragraph.

Libido: Was never my objective (libido was ok on cyp). So I was shocked to see my libido go up to 11. Rock hard diamond titanium erections, anytime all the time. Everything looks hot. Sometimes problematically and inappropriately so.

Gym performance (weights): Excellent. Better than cyp of 70-200mg. "feels like" 500mg cyp. Am making many PRs.

Gains \ muscle fullness (looks wise): Excellent. Better than cyp of 70-200mg. "looks like" 500mg cyp or even better. Strange.

Cardio ability (especially jogging): Excellent. Again, better than cyp of 70-200mg. Could be due to below point on water retention.

Water retention: Now I understand what people mean when they say prop is "dry". Ankle water us gone. I can jog properly again without pain! Yet scale weight is up, so I have an increase in lean mass.

Laziness, lethargy, drive and aggression: Less lazy than cyp and more aggression and drive.

Conclusion and way forward:

In light of the multitude of benefits, I am continuing with the prop forever. Yet the sleep issue is devastating. So therefore my focus is now on resolving the sleep issues caused by it. Have played with low dose diazepam (1/4 or 1/2 of a 5mg tablet), a few drinks in the evening, MK677, various antihistamines in high dose, melatonin etc etc etc. All the usual bodybuilder "trensomnia" remedies (even though this is not tren) All work to some extent. Please, no doomsday comments on the diazepam. It was a temporary trial which is over.

Will lower prop dose to 15mg daily (105mg / week) and then 10mg daily and also spend more time with MK-677 which is the safest of all of the above options. If I can get deep sleep with a lower dose of prop without needing to resort to any sleeping aids, I am willing to compromise to some extent on the benefits of the prop. Will eventually report back on that outcome, going to need a while to get the perfect balance.

Please fire away with any questions you may have.

Thanks for the detailed report! Excellent. Wish I could upvote your post multiple times.

Man I love me some TOT...

Get Big or Get Sleepy while you are slowly Dyin' with intermittent arrythmia and panic/anxiety. Gotta pay to play.

Over here I am back to 120 mg/week of 4:1 TC/TP blend. Should be back to post on next trip to ER in a few months.

Now that I have been tracking my sleep with FitBit I have a great correlation between sleep quality and T dose as I have titrated up from 80 to 100 to 120 mg/week over last 5 months.

Good luck!

 

[Willyt]

As promised, I am reporting back a summary of my experiment. Objective was deeper sleep. Dose is 20mg daily AM subq into upper bum fat pad.

Sleep (main objective): Total failure. Sleep is WORSE than cypionate. Completely decimated. Like using Tren. No issue getting to sleep but waking up 2am and then having this in-between sleep wakeful state (lets call it stage 1/2 sleep). Feels like a total lack of deep stage 3-4 sleep. Will discuss further in the concluding paragraph.

Thanks for reporting back on your wild mustang ride on Prop. I had similar experiences at much lower doses although without that libido (damn it!). Agreed that the difference in water weight is night and day.

The effect of 20mg daily on sleep was somewhat predictable. As I mentioned earlier in thread, the peak on straight Prop is so much higher. My experience has been that for better sleep, the T levels need to drop down to a comfortable physiological number, which is probably unique to each individual. Otherwise your body is just too amped up.

This is where the Enan-Prop blends come into play. You benefit from that overnight decrease, but the swing is less sharp than straight Prop. But it still comes down to dose. I bet you would do well on @Cataceous 4:3 Enan to Prop blend at around 10-12 mg per day. My guess you would still be peaking above range. It won't feel like your experiment, but you'll you won't walking around like a zombie all day on those sleep meds.

 

[Jerajera]

As promised, I am reporting back a summary of my experiment. Objective was deeper sleep. Dose is 20mg daily AM subq into upper bum fat pad.

Sleep (main objective): Total failure. Sleep is WORSE than cypionate. Completely decimated. Like using Tren. No issue getting to sleep but waking up 2am and then having this in-between sleep wakeful state (lets call it stage 1/2 sleep). Feels like a total lack of deep stage 3-4 sleep. Will discuss further in the concluding paragraph.

Libido: Was never my objective (libido was ok on cyp). So I was shocked to see my libido go up to 11. Rock hard diamond titanium erections, anytime all the time. Everything looks hot. Sometimes problematically and inappropriately so.

Gym performance (weights): Excellent. Better than cyp of 70-200mg. "feels like" 500mg cyp. Am making many PRs.

Gains \ muscle fullness (looks wise): Excellent. Better than cyp of 70-200mg. "looks like" 500mg cyp or even better. Strange.

Cardio ability (especially jogging): Excellent. Again, better than cyp of 70-200mg. Could be due to below point on water retention.

Water retention: Now I understand what people mean when they say prop is "dry". Ankle water us gone. I can jog properly again without pain! Yet scale weight is up, so I have an increase in lean mass.

Laziness, lethargy, drive and aggression: Less lazy than cyp and more aggression and drive.

Conclusion and way forward:

In light of the multitude of benefits, I am continuing with the prop forever. Yet the sleep issue is devastating. So therefore my focus is now on resolving the sleep issues caused by it. Have played with low dose diazepam (1/4 or 1/2 of a 5mg tablet), a few drinks in the evening, MK677, various antihistamines in high dose, melatonin etc etc etc. All the usual bodybuilder "trensomnia" remedies (even though this is not tren) All work to some extent. Please, no doomsday comments on the diazepam. It was a temporary trial which is over.

Will lower prop dose to 15mg daily (105mg / week) and then 10mg daily and also spend more time with MK-677 which is the safest of all of the above options. If I can get deep sleep with a lower dose of prop without needing to resort to any sleeping aids, I am willing to compromise to some extent on the benefits of the prop. Will eventually report back on that outcome, going to need a while to get the perfect balance.

Please fire away with any questions you may have.

Thanks for the detailed trip report, your experience echos my own with Prop.

I was doing 15mg/day and had all the benefits you listed. On top of that my mood was incredible, I felt hyper confident and was smiling all day long. Libido and erection quality were also ridiculous, best of any protocol I've tried by far.

Unfortunately I was just too wired on it. I was doing shallow IM injections in the AM and the peak was too rough, I constantly felt as if I'd drunk 3 redbulls in a row and my sleep was awful as well. I also started having slight headaches after a while, which for me is typically a sign of elevated BP.

I'm starting again on 10mg/day subQ, hoping the theoretically slower subQ delivery will help compress the gap between peak and trough levels. @readalot posted a study showing such an effect on subQ vs IM Cypionate, so the principle should hold for different esters.

There you go, found it: T Propionate protocol

Have you thought about injecting at night instead? SubQ might build slowly enough that you'd wake up with a ton of energy but your levels would be low enough at trough when you go to bed that you might be able to sleep better.

Also Pregnenolone and/or DHEA seems to help some people with sleep, presumably perhaps through a downstream increase in Progesterone levels. Might be worth a try.

EDIT: By the way, did you get any lab work done on this protocol?

 

[Jerajera]

My experience has been that for better sleep, the T levels need to drop down to a comfortable physiological number

Have you tried injecting Test P at night? Were you doing IM or subQ?