Questions new protocl

[rafapark]

Hi guys:

I've been in TRT since April of this year. I started with a local clinic and then switched to Defy on July 1. Before switching to Defy in July 1 these were my markers (all labcorp) and protocol:

Protocol before Defy:
T cypionate/propianate : 80 mg twice per week
Anastrazole: 0.5 mg twice per week
HCG : 300 IU twice per week

Markers before Defy :
Free T: 28.7 pg/ml
Total T > 1500 ng/dl
Estradiol sensitive: 24.8 pg/ml
SHBG: 77
DHEA-S: 125.7

I was having strong erections with this protocol and lots of energy. Erections at night were constant and strong. Libido was good. I then switched to this protocol based on Defy recommendations:

Defy Protocol with Defy:
T cypionate/propianate : 80 mg twice per week - (same dosage as before)
Anastrazole: 0.125 per week - (lower dosage than before)
HCG: 500 IU per week - ( Higher dosage than before)
DHEA: 25 mg daily ( new )

I continued to have strong erections and increased libido. I felt like I did in my 20s!

But all went downhill about three weeks ago. Erections and libido have been reduced dramatically. I did a blood test last week and this is what I found:

Free T: 32.8 pgml
Total T: 1615 ng/dl
Estradiol sensitive: 41.9 pg/ml
DHEA-S : 259.4 ug/dl
SHBG: 62 nmol.L

I believe that DHEA-S is where it is supposed to be and the ratio total T/estradiol is not that high. But still I don't feel as good as before. Is it possible that the higher Estradiol is affecting me? Maybe the DHEA which as added? These are the two things that are different. I also have Thyroid tests done before and after and they all look good and very consistent.

What do you guys think is going on? I have an appointment coming up with Defy but would like some feedback from the experts on the forum.

Thanks!


Rafa

 

[Vince]

Your estradiol levels are not too high but maybe you're someone that needs even lower levels like you had originally.

 

[MarkM]

When are you having your blood work drawn in relation to your injections?

 

[rafapark]

Your estradiol levels are not too high but maybe you're someone that needs even lower levels like you had originally.

Hi Vince:
Thank you for your input. That is what I thought. You can feel these things. I assume that DHEA supplementation increases Estradiol so the question is: should I increase my Anaztrasol eto where it was before or should I reduce the DHEA. Not sure if I am feeling any benefits from DHEA.

 

[rafapark]

When are you having your blood work drawn in relation to your injections?

Hi MarkM:

I do blood test the day before injections. I inject twice a week.

 

[MarkM]

Hi MarkM:

I do blood test the day before injections. I inject twice a week.

The day before your injection or the day of your injection but prior to the injection?

 

[Vince]

Hi Vince:
Thank you for your input. That is what I thought. You can feel these things. I assume that DHEA supplementation increases Estradiol so the question is: should I increase my Anaztrasol eto where it was before or should I reduce the DHEA. Not sure if I am feeling any benefits from DHEA.

I would probably talk to your doctor about going back to your original protocol, since you were feeling so good. There's nothing wrong with estradiol levels in the 24 range.

 

[Vince]

Some members don't supplement with DHEA because of it increasing in their estradiol levels.

 

[rafapark]

The day before your injection or the day of your injection but prior to the injection?

Hi MarkM:

Hi MarkM: The same day of the injection but before the injection.

 

[rafapark]

Some members don't supplement with DHEA because of it increasing in their estradiol levels.

Thanks Vince. I never felt anything good with DHEA anyway.

 

[MarkM]

Hi MarkM:

Hi MarkM: The same day of the injection but before the injection.

Perfect!

 

[DragonBits]

Some members don't supplement with DHEA because of it increasing in their estradiol levels.

It seems to do nothing for my estradiol levels, and I was taking 25mg DHEA, my DHEA-s went from 95ug/dl >450.5 (30.9-295.6). WHich is 50% higher than the top of the range. While my estradiol measured 20.3 ug/dl (8-35)

I am think it was the HCG combined with DHEA that did that.

 

[Vince]

It seems to do nothing for my estradiol levels, and I was taking 25mg DHEA, my DHEA-s went from 95ug/dl >450.5 (30.9-295.6). WHich is 50% higher than the top of the range. While my estradiol measured 20.3 ug/dl (8-35)

I am think it was the HCG combined with DHEA that did that.

I did experiment with DHEA, every time I increase the amount of DHEA my estradiol levels increased and when I decrease the dose my estrogen levels also went lower.

 

[rafapark]

I did experiment with DHEA, every time I increase the amount of DHEA my estradiol levels increased and when I decrease the dose my estrogen levels also went lower.

Hi Vince:

Sorry I missed your response. I made the mistake I guess of changing two things at the same time: AI and DHEA. I was coming to Defy from a local doctor and the Defy doc put me on 25mg of DHEA and reduce my AI from 0.5mg to 0.125mg and that took my Estradiol level to 41.9 pg/ml.

I also noted that my total testosterone at 1615 ng/dl vs estradiol will give me a ratio of 38.5. I've been reading that a good ration should be between 20 to 30.

I wouldn't mind any of these numbers if not for the fact that i was feeling amazing 4 weeks after starting with Defy ( with AI at 0.125 and adding 25 mg of DHEA). Very strong libido, raging erections and energy. I had not felt this way since I was in my 20s. I am 62yo! However all this went away almost overnight. I assume that in my case there is a threshold for Estradiol and free T that I crossed and I need to find the right number again that is associated with how great I felt for 4 weeks. I actually felt better with free T at 22 than free T at 32.8 where it is today.

I stopped DHEA but still have not found the sweet spot.

So questions for the you and anybody else that could give me some guidance:

1 - Instead of eliminating DHEA should I just reduce it to say 12.5 mgs instead of 25mgs? I assume DHEA had something to do with my extremely high libido for those 4 weeks but also with the higher estradiol.
2 - Do you think my estradiol is too high as compared to my total T, free T and SHBG?
3 - Does my ratio total T/ estradiol seem too high?

I have an appointment with Defy this week and I'd like to come to it with as much information as possible in order to ask the right questions.

Thanks a lot in advance!!

Rafa

 

[Vince]

Hi Vince:

Sorry I missed your response. I made the mistake I guess of changing two things at the same time: AI and DHEA. I was coming to Defy from a local doctor and the Defy doc put me on 25mg of DHEA and reduce my AI from 0.5mg to 0.125mg and that took my Estradiol level to 41.9 pg/ml.

I also noted that my total testosterone at 1615 ng/dl vs estradiol will give me a ratio of 38.5. I've been reading that a good ration should be between 20 to 30.

I wouldn't mind any of these numbers if not for the fact that i was feeling amazing 4 weeks after starting with Defy ( with AI at 0.125 and adding 25 mg of DHEA). Very strong libido, raging erections and energy. I had not felt this way since I was in my 20s. I am 62yo! However all this went away almost overnight. I assume that in my case there is a threshold for Estradiol and free T that I crossed and I need to find the right number again that is associated with how great I felt for 4 weeks. I actually felt better with free T at 22 than free T at 32.8 where it is today.

I stopped DHEA but still have not found the sweet spot.

So questions for the you and anybody else that could give me some guidance:

1 - Instead of eliminating DHEA should I just reduce it to say 12.5 mgs instead of 25mgs? I assume DHEA had something to do with my extremely high libido for those 4 weeks but also with the higher estradiol.
2 - Do you think my estradiol is too high as compared to my total T, free T and SHBG?
3 - Does my ratio total T/ estradiol seem too high?

I have an appointment with Defy this week and I'd like to come to it with as much information as possible in order to ask the right questions.

Thanks a lot in advance!!

Rafa

Something's amiss, I don't understand why you're testosterone levels are so high. The only injecting 80 milligrams twice a week, your level T shouldn't have been above 1500.

 

[DragonBits]

Hi Vince:

Sorry I missed your response. I made the mistake I guess of changing two things at the same time: AI and DHEA. I was coming to Defy from a local doctor and the Defy doc put me on 25mg of DHEA and reduce my AI from 0.5mg to 0.125mg and that took my Estradiol level to 41.9 pg/ml.

I also noted that my total testosterone at 1615 ng/dl vs estradiol will give me a ratio of 38.5. I've been reading that a good ration should be between 20 to 30.

I wouldn't mind any of these numbers if not for the fact that i was feeling amazing 4 weeks after starting with Defy ( with AI at 0.125 and adding 25 mg of DHEA). Very strong libido, raging erections and energy. I had not felt this way since I was in my 20s. I am 62yo! However all this went away almost overnight. I assume that in my case there is a threshold for Estradiol and free T that I crossed and I need to find the right number again that is associated with how great I felt for 4 weeks. I actually felt better with free T at 22 than free T at 32.8 where it is today.

I stopped DHEA but still have not found the sweet spot.

So questions for the you and anybody else that could give me some guidance:

1 - Instead of eliminating DHEA should I just reduce it to say 12.5 mgs instead of 25mgs? I assume DHEA had something to do with my extremely high libido for those 4 weeks but also with the higher estradiol.
2 - Do you think my estradiol is too high as compared to my total T, free T and SHBG?
3 - Does my ratio total T/ estradiol seem too high?

I have an appointment with Defy this week and I'd like to come to it with as much information as possible in order to ask the right questions.

Thanks a lot in advance!!

Rafa

I agree with Vince, your TT seems too high for what you are injecting. Maybe check you are injecting what you think you are injecting.

But to give you another data point.

When I first went on TRT I used Nebido, only nebido, and I got that period of feeling like a 20 year old for about 12 months. That was after being on TRT for about 7 months. No dhea, nothing else.

I also had a fiance who was 23 years younger flirting on the phone making me crazy, so maybe that was a part of it.

It was a little crazy, so I don't crave going back to that, I was getting a hardon for no particular reason any time and often during the day. I was about 61 at the time.

I went off of TRT for a couple of years, now I am back on for the last 5 months.

I am a happy medium right now.

 

[DragonBits]

I did experiment with DHEA, every time I increase the amount of DHEA my estradiol levels increased and when I decrease the dose my estrogen levels also went lower.

Vince, do you think 25 mg DHEA getting me from 95ug/dl >450.5 seems unusual?

And I guess if my E2 goes down, then it may be my stop taking DHEA.

 

[Vince]

Vince, do you think 25 mg DHEA getting me from 95ug/dl >450.5 seems unusual?

And I guess if my E2 goes down, then it may be my stop taking DHEA.

At the time when I experimented with DHEA I was not on testosterone. The only thing I know for sure was it would lower my testosterone and increase my estrogen. That's why I never recommend anyone who's not testosterone to use DHEA.
I experimented with 10 mg and 25 mg I don't remember what percent of increase in estrogen it caused. I know this, the more DHEA I supplement with the lower my testosterone went and the higher my estrogen increased.

 

[rafapark]

Something's amiss, I don't understand why you're testosterone levels are so high. The only injecting 80 milligrams twice a week, your level T shouldn't have been above 1500.

I am injecting 0.4 ml twice a week from a cyp/prop 160/40 mg/ml twice a week. This is 80mg twice a week if I am doing my calculations correctly. It fact my total T was a lot higher and my T was in the mid 20s when I started with Defy. My total T has come down to the number quoted above and my SHBG has also come down from 77 to 62. I assume this is what is causing my free T to be where it is at. In fact, the Defy doctor told me in my last consultation that we should not even pay attention to the high T ( due to my high SHBG) and focus on free T. Not sure what I am missing. Thanks.

 

[rafapark]

I agree with Vince, your TT seems too high for what you are injecting. Maybe check you are injecting what you think you are injecting.

But to give you another data point.

When I first went on TRT I used Nebido, only nebido, and I got that period of feeling like a 20 year old for about 12 months. That was after being on TRT for about 7 months. No dhea, nothing else.

I also had a fiance who was 23 years younger flirting on the phone making me crazy, so maybe that was a part of it.

It was a little crazy, so I don't crave going back to that, I was getting a hardon for no particular reason any time and often during the day. I was about 61 at the time.

I went off of TRT for a couple of years, now I am back on for the last 5 months.

I am a happy medium right now.

Yes, that is the way I felt. I miss that!