Plant Based Diet and Testosterone Levels

[Jinzang]

Hereś an interesting study of how plant based diets affect testosterone levels. The epithet "soy boy" is used not just to describe men who consume soybean products, but also men who avoid meat. So how does a vegetarian or semi-vegetarian ("plant based") diet affect testosterone levels? Not at all, apart from any effect on BMI, it turns out. The abstract says:
"Data on demographics, diet, and testosterone levels was acquired from the NHANES database. Using the food frequency questionnaire, an overall plant-based diet index (PDI) and a healthful plant-based diet index (hPDI) was developed. A higher score on PDI and hPDI indicates higher consumption of plant foods.
"A total of 191 participants were included, average age was 45 (30-60) years and average total testosterone level was 546.7 ± 254.7 ng/dL. On multiple linear regression analysis, BMI and age significantly contribute to testosterone levels (p < 0.05); however, neither of the diet indexes significantly predicted serum testosterone levels (PDI: p = 0.446; and hPDI: p = 0.056).
"In a well characterized national database, the plant-based diet index is unable to predict testosterone levels. Plant-based food content in diet is not associated with serum testosterone levels."

 

[bochinit]

Ok, but what the conclusion? Are you vegan? Cause it is horible to eat just carbs and soy dont you think?

 

[camygod]

im not vegan but find the whole soy boy thing hilarious seeing as its ment to be about their being high amounts of estrogen in soy yet the highest estrogen is in dairy and milk

 

[Jinzang]

Ok, but what the conclusion? Are you vegan? Cause it is horible to eat just carbs and soy dont you think?

No, I'm not a vegan. The point is, though, that both a vegan diet and a diet with meat can be healthy if they follow the general rules of a healthy diet and unhealthy if they do not. These rules are:

• Eat unprocessed instead of processed foods
• Eat whole instead of refined foods
• Avoid fried foods
• Avoid sugar
• Avoid red meat

If you are wondering where protein comes from in a vegan diet, it comes from the combination of grains and legumes. This is a pattern you see in many cultures: corn and beans in Latin America, oat or wheat and peas in Europe, rice and soy in East Asia.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

The problem with this data is that it is highly unlikely to be applicable to highly active people. If you look at the way the way someone like Mike Mahler eats, he is quite candid about using massive amounts of vegan protein powders.

 

[Jinzang]

I don't know Mike Mahler, but fitness coaches sometimes have exaggerated ideas of how much protein one needs. When I started TRT I hired a personal trainer and I asked him how much protein I should eat. He said 1.3 to 1.5 grams / kg of body weight, which for me works out to be 120 grams. He had a degree in exercise physiology and was working on a masters in nutrition, so I think he knew what he was saying. That amount of protein has worked well for me and I believe you can achieve it on a variety of diets, including a healthy vegan diet, without supplementation, or with only a modest amount of supplementation.
I don't believe you should let your fitness goals determine your diet. I think older men should eat a diet that reduces the risk of erectile dysfunction, diabetes, heart disease, and cancer and the amount of protein in the diet is not a factor for this.

 

[JohnTaylorHK]

No, I'm not a vegan. The point is, though, that both a vegan diet and a diet with meat can be healthy if they follow the general rules of a healthy diet and unhealthy if they do not. These rules are:

IMVHO, and having tried just about every diet that has ever existed over the last 10 years, the problem is that there are very few rules to follow for good nutrition (good news), but very few food scientists/nutritionists agree on what they are. Pre-1977 (1983 in UK), the general advice was to moderate carbohydrate. Post those dates, the advice was changed to advocate an increase in carbohydrates. No one specified what carbs, and Prof John Yudkin even wrote a book to advise of the dangers of simple carbohydrates, which was ignored resoundly by "experts" and governments around the world. The human body is very adept at ignoring (triaging) short-term micro-nutrient shortages, but great damage can occur down the road as we begin to experience atherosclerosis osteoporosis etc. I find that we tend to concentrate on macro-nutrients, which largely determine body composition, to the detriment of our longevity. RDAs, for example, can be considered as minimum requirements, but are treated as goals by most. Many essential minerals have no RDA number given, as there is not even a solid grasp of their health and well-being effects. Iodine and Boron, for example, do not appear in NCCDB analyses of our foods. But what about things like Strontium, Arsenic, Chromium?

Getting back to the Soy theme, some sources argue, rightly or wrongly, that there are reasons to avoid it all together. Having tried to formulate a healthy vegetarian/vegan diet, I'm afraid that it's just very much simpler to obtain both macro and micro nutrients using some animal products.

At the end of the day, nutrition plans, especially in seniors, should be tailored towards the individual, and adapted over time as one gauges their own body's reactions. "Let food be your medicine", hardly a novel concept. Namaste.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Substitution of animal-based with plant-based foods on cardiometabolic health and all-cause mortality: a systematic review and meta-analysis of prospective studies - BMC Medicine

Background There is growing evidence that substituting animal-based with plant-based foods is associated with a lower risk of cardiovascular diseases (CVD), type 2 diabetes (T2D), and all-cause mortality. Our aim was to summarize and evaluate the evidence for the substitution of any animal-based...

bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com

 

[BigTex]

These studies found lower energy and total and saturated fat contents and higher total carbohydrates, sugars, and fibers in PBMAs compared to meat-based products.

In other words, plant based products are highly processed.

Detailed characterization of plant-based burgers - Scientific Reports

Flexitarians have reduced their meat consumption showing a rising interest in plant-based meat alternatives with ‘meaty’ characteristics, and we are witnessing an unprecedented growth of meat substitutes in the Western market. However, to our knowledge, no information regarding the ‘simulated...

www.nature.com

In addition, it is noteworthy that plant-based and animal products also differ in protein digestibility and the bioavailability of single amino acids. Indeed, animal meat showed higher protein digestibility than PBMAs, which, in turn, have a negative impact on amino acid bioavailability.

Protein content and amino acid composition of commercially available plant-based protein isolates

The postprandial rise in essential amino acid (EAA) concentrations modulates the increase in muscle protein synthesis rates after protein ingestion. The EAA content and AA composition of the dietary protein source contribute to the differential muscle ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Some of us may not be old enough to remember one of the 1st plant-based experiments done on Americans so I will pass reminder on......this didn't turn out so well.

During the 1960/70’s Americans became increasingly concerned about their health. More people wanted to consume less butter because of the negative health effects associated with saturated fats and how many calories it contained. Instead of the famous pair of butter on toast, it became margarine on toast. This was one of the 1st plant-based experiments done by hydrogenating vegetable oils and adding a butter flavoring. Around 1987, we discovered that the trans-fats found in hydrogenated vegetable oils were deemed to be very unhealthy. While more profits were made producing these products, those who consumed them paid the price with a much higher rate of cardiovascular disease. By January 2020, U.S. food manufacturers would no longer be allowed to sell foods containing partially hydrogenated oil. That effectively banned trans fats from being added to foods made or sold in the United States.

Also from the early 70's in a commercial to sell margarine came the slogan It's not nice to fool Mother Nature.

Ironically they were trying to fool mother nature, but it appears mother nature always has her vengeance.

 

[Gman86]

These studies found lower energy and total and saturated fat contents and higher total carbohydrates, sugars, and fibers in PBMAs compared to meat-based products.

In other words, plant based products are highly processed.

Detailed characterization of plant-based burgers - Scientific Reports

Flexitarians have reduced their meat consumption showing a rising interest in plant-based meat alternatives with ‘meaty’ characteristics, and we are witnessing an unprecedented growth of meat substitutes in the Western market. However, to our knowledge, no information regarding the ‘simulated...

www.nature.com

In addition, it is noteworthy that plant-based and animal products also differ in protein digestibility and the bioavailability of single amino acids. Indeed, animal meat showed higher protein digestibility than PBMAs, which, in turn, have a negative impact on amino acid bioavailability.

Protein content and amino acid composition of commercially available plant-based protein isolates

The postprandial rise in essential amino acid (EAA) concentrations modulates the increase in muscle protein synthesis rates after protein ingestion. The EAA content and AA composition of the dietary protein source contribute to the differential muscle ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Some of us may not be old enough to remember one of the 1st plant-based experiments done on Americans so I will pass reminder on......this didn't turn out so well.

During the 1960/70’s Americans became increasingly concerned about their health. More people wanted to consume less butter because of the negative health effects associated with saturated fats and how many calories it contained. Instead of the famous pair of butter on toast, it became margarine on toast. This was one of the 1st plant-based experiments done by hydrogenating vegetable oils and adding a butter flavoring. Around 1987, we discovered that the trans-fats found in hydrogenated vegetable oils were deemed to be very unhealthy. While more profits were made producing these products, those who consumed them paid the price with a much higher rate of cardiovascular disease. By January 2020, U.S. food manufacturers would no longer be allowed to sell foods containing partially hydrogenated oil. That effectively banned trans fats from being added to foods made or sold in the United States.

Also from the early 70's in a commercial to sell margarine came the slogan It's not nice to fool Mother Nature.

Ironically they were trying to fool mother nature, but it appears mother nature always has her vengeance.

A healthy diet is simply consuming foods that give the body the nutrition that it needs to function properly, that don’t concurrently harm the body in any way while consuming them. It’s literally that simple. The only reason there’s still debates about what foods should be included on this list is that there’s still lack of knowledge about what foods are doing what within the body once consumed. But the beautiful thing is that the truth always comes to light eventually. Facts are facts regardless of peoples opinions, and/ or what corrupt studies show/ say. It is very nice to see that the truth is coming to light at a very rapid rate recently, and I only see that trend continuing.

 

[BigTex]

The other problem @Gman86 is there are a lot of zealots on the internet that get stuck on a certain restrictive diet and feel their way is only way so they spend their lives preaching to the rest of us like it is a religion. You are right, eating a balanced diet is pretty simple.

 

[Gman86]

The other problem @Gman86 is there are a lot of zealots on the internet that get stuck on a certain restrictive diet and feel their way is only way so they spend their lives preaching to the rest of us like it is a religion. You are right, eating a balanced diet is pretty simple.

Very true. I personally couldn’t care less what label gets attached to the way I eat. I literally just want to eat as optimally as I can, while still enjoying my life and factoring in convenience, money and my personal goals into the mix. And that’s probably the best strategy for most people, when it comes to diet, imo. Just finding the best balance that works for u personally, and makes u the happiest overall that u can be. Everyone has different goals, and prioritize things in different ratios. Some might want to live as long as possible, even if it means calorie restricting and staying very lean with a low amount of muscle. Some might want a nice balance of maintaining a good amount of muscle, while also trying to increase longevity the best that they can. And some might prioritize the way they look a decent amount more than living as long as possible. For a few examples. The list goes on and on, as far as people’s personal goals go, and what people prioritize in their life.

it’s no secret that I personally feel that the most optimal diet for humans is either a carnivore diet, or a carnivore base with certain carbs added in. The fortunate thing about most of the carnivore advocates is that most of them have been vegan/ vegetarian prior to finding out about carnivore. So they’re very open minded and empathetic and understanding to people that eat other ways. Since most of them have been there themselves. That’s at least what I’ve found. Most people that I’ve seen that practice carnivore just want to see everyone happy and thriving, whichever ways they can. They’re mostly just trying to spread awareness and correct misinformation, again from what I’ve seen

 

[Gman86]

Here’s what I’m talking about. At 12 mins and 15 seconds in Paul simply says that if ur thriving on the diet ur eating then don’t change a thing. Most of the people on social media advocating for a carnivore diet, that I’ve seen, just want people to be happy and thrive, and just want to put as much info out there as possible to help people do just this

For context, if anyone wants to watch the whole video, Dr anthony Chaffee eats full carnivore, and Dr Paul Saladino eats a carnivore based diet with added carbs from things like raw honey, fruit and raw dairy

 

[BigTex]

My wife started eating what is now called the carnivor diet decades before it started to be come a religion. That is just part of the culture she came from. But in my experience the carnivor people are just like the vegans in pushing their diet on the rest of society. While I don't disagree with the diet at all, I know how much my wife spends at the grocery store eating so much meat. I like meat but I am a hard head and stopped eating beef years ago, just because the price went up to what I thought were ridiculous levels. My wife has a freezer full of beef but I refuse to eat it. I switched to pork and they did the same thing so I surely won't spend the money to eat pork which I really don't care for anyway. Fish and chicken are about all I eat only because of the price. I also drink weight gain and whey protein shakes because dollar for dollar, they are MUCH less expensive sources of protein compared to meats of any kind. My biggest challenge is getting enough calories.

@Gman86, I am one of the lucky few that can eat anything I want and be fine, even donuts and ice cream. I try to keep the fats healthy and about 25%, the protein about 35% and the carbs about 40%. I actually do a carb cycling diet going high carb on workout days, medium carbs on days off and low carb on the weekend. My worst problem is I HATE vegetables of any kind and have not eaten any vegies in many years.

 

[BigTex]

Here’s what I’m talking about. At 12 mins and 15 seconds in Paul simply says that if ur thriving on the diet ur eating then don’t change a thing. Most of the people on social media advocating for a carnivore diet, that I’ve seen, just want people to be happy and thrive, and just want to put as much info out there as possible to help people do just this

For context, if anyone wants to watch the whole video, Dr anthony Chaffee eats full carnivore, and Dr Paul Saladino eats a carnivore based diet with added carbs from things like raw honey, fruit and raw dairy

Again, my problem with this diet is $$$$$. At Kroger here, the price of ground meat is $7.49/lb, ribeye - $16.99/lb, top sirloin - $10.99/lb, beef tenderloin - $22.99/lb. Holy shit...about $60 for 4 days of beef just for one person. Finding raw honey and raw dairy is almost impossible here in the city unless you go to these over priced specialty "natural" food stores. I already get angry having to pay $2.35/gal for the cheapest whole milk in the store, the price of eggs makes me want to cry. My wife and I make pretty good money but when your grocery bill far exceeds your mortgage and a new car note its time to reconsider what you are eating. We grow tons of fruit in California, South Texas and Florida but all we get here is this dried up crap from Mexico. I love fruit. As much as I think most all Americans need to consume more protein, the price of meats has put it way out of range for most people and Texas is a beef state.

 

[Gman86]

Again, my problem with this diet is $$$$$. At Kroger here, the price of ground meat is $7.49/lb, ribeye - $16.99/lb, top sirloin - $10.99/lb, beef tenderloin - $22.99/lb. Holy shit...about $60 for 4 days of beef just for one person. Finding raw honey and raw dairy is almost impossible here in the city unless you go to these over priced specialty "natural" food stores. I already get angry having to pay $2.35/gal for the cheapest whole milk in the store, the price of eggs makes me want to cry. My wife and I make pretty good money but when your grocery bill far exceeds your mortgage and a new car note its time to reconsider what you are eating. We grow tons of fruit in California, South Texas and Florida but all we get here is this dried up crap from Mexico. I love fruit. As much as I think most all Americans need to consume more protein, the price of meats has put it way out of range for most people and Texas is a beef state.

Yup, I pretty much agree with u completely, and 100% see where ur coming from. Theres multiple reasons why I don’t eat full carnivore. One being that from my current understanding, the ideal diet might not be full carnivore and being in ketosis 100% of the time, and it might be a carnivore base, with added carbs to get small to moderate insulin spikes throughout the day. Others being cost. It would just be too expensive for me rn to do full carnivore, with how many calories I try to consume per day. And the last reason is because gym performance is better with carbs, and putting in lean tissue is easier with carbs. Here’s a pic of my breakfast. Pretty balanced meal. Already ate the 8oz of grassfed ground beef, rice, salt and a little mustard, while sipping on some coconut water, and then gonna enjoy some honeydew melon for dessert

as far as raw dairy goes, I just grab some raw grassfed cheese from Whole Foods, and eat 1oz per day. Ur right tho, it’s fckn expensive. Thats why I just eat a little bit each day. A little block of it lasts me 8 days tho, if I eat the 1oz per day. If I miss a day here and there a little block obv lasts even longer. And some honey at Whole Foods is decently priced. But I just ordered a bunch online. Prices were pretty good, imo. I’ll attach the links.

and u and ur wife are actually very fortunate. She’s fortunate that via her culture she naturally eats mostly carnivore. And ur lucky that u’ve stayed away from vegetables, due to hating eating them lol. U both are doing the right things by u just eating intuitively, and ur wife luckily growing up in a culture that eats mostly animal based, from the sounds of it

Y.S. Eco Bee Farms Organic Raw Honey on sale at AllStarHealth.com

100% Certified Organic Honey (Raw, Unprocessed, Unpasteurized)

null

www.pureformulas.com

 

[FunkOdyssey]

@Gman86, next time you are going to post a pic of your meal, take the picture BEFORE you eat it! Only you would post a pic of an empty bowl. LOL

 

[Gman86]

@Gman86, next time you are going to post a pic of your meal, take the picture BEFORE you eat it! Only you would post a pic of an empty bowl. LOL

i‘ll switch out the pic tomorrow morning, I eat the same things everyday. I was posting while I was eating, and by the time I thought to post a pic, it was already gone lol.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

Again, my problem with this diet is $$$$$.

Paul Saladino has done some good videos on the least expensive ways to eat an animal-based diet with grocery haul type content:

I will say that my diet as it currently sits, with at least a pound of ribeye per day, some grass-fed beef sausages, some chicken skewers, several mandarin oranges, some cantaloupe, some coconut water, oftentimes a couple eggs, costs probably around $30 per day or $900 a month. I'll admit that is high for a single person, but if that's more than your mortgage, I am very jealous of your mortgage.

Also, I'm sure I could bring that cost down alot if I really made a point to. I would just need to buy cheaper cuts in bulk, use slow-cooking methods to make the cheaper meat tender, etc. Mainly it would cost time to save the money and I can't afford the time.

 

[Systemlord]

Again, my problem with this diet is $$$$$.

I'm on the carnivore diet and just spent $100 at Costco, 12 pounds of meat for two days of eating, consuming 6 pounds per day. I can eat until I'm full and still continue to lose weight!

As far as vegan versus carnivore diet, it's not a religion, red meat has all the nutrients I require, it's very nutritious and vegetables can't compare, which is why supplementation is needed.

I'm a firm believer, whenever you move away from what's natural in our evolutionary past, there's a price to pay. Eating fruits and vegetables was a seasonal event.