Need for Thyroid Supplementation while on TRT.....

[BillyJ03z]

As most of you on this forum know from my other posts that I have been on TRT for about 11-12yrs now and never felt dialed in.. Suffering from mild depression, lack of sleep, no motivation, cognitive issues, etc.... So I was recently going over my current and past blood labs to see if there are any variations that jump out at me to compare when I felt decent and like shit while on TRT... Pre-TRT my lipids were fine, my SHBG was in high 20's to mid 30's and Thyroid panels were fine.... When I started TRT my SHBG dropped to single digits/low teens and Lipid panel went out of range... Now, the one big thing I noticed is that when I supplemented with 3 grains of NDT thyroid and 12 mcg's of t3 (divided into twice day) my SHBG raised from single digits into the 20's and my lipid panel became in range... When I supplemented with just NDT and no additional T3 my SHBG still raised and my lipids became closer to in range but not perfect like when I added T3.... funny thing is that my Free t3/t4 numbers relatively didn't change from being on NDT with T3 compared to just NDT compared to natural. On paper my Lipids improved and SHBG raised. During these times I really never could tell if I felt any better as I my whole experience on TRT has been meh, but on paper my numbers look better.

From some of the research I done on the net, I have found numerous claims that Exogenous Thyroid supplementation while on TRT does raise SHBG and improve lipid panels. Has anyone else experimented with Thyroid supplementation and had any positive benefits?

 

[Vince]

As most of you on this forum know from my other posts that I have been on TRT for about 11-12yrs now and never felt dialed in.. Suffering from mild depression, lack of sleep, no motivation, cognitive issues, etc.... So I was recently going over my current and past blood labs to see if there are any variations that jump out at me to compare when I felt decent and like shit while on TRT... Pre-TRT my lipids were fine, my SHBG was in high 20's to mid 30's and Thyroid panels were fine.... When I started TRT my SHBG dropped to single digits/low teens and Lipid panel went out of range... Now, the one big thing I noticed is that when I supplemented with 3 grains of NDT thyroid and 12 mcg's of t3 (divided into twice day) my SHBG raised from single digits into the 20's and my lipid panel became in range... When I supplemented with just NDT and no additional T3 my SHBG still raised and my lipids became closer to in range but not perfect like when I added T3.... funny thing is that my Free t3/t4 numbers relatively didn't change from being on NDT with T3 compared to just NDT compared to natural. On paper my Lipids improved and SHBG raised. During these times I really never could tell if I felt any better as I my whole experience on TRT has been meh, but on paper my numbers look better.

From some of the research I done on the net, I have found numerous claims that Exogenous Thyroid supplementation while on TRT does raise SHBG and improve lipid panels. Has anyone else experimented with Thyroid supplementation and had any positive benefits?

Many preventative doctors always check thyroid panels. They know that people with low free t3 can get heart disease. Free. T3 improves LDL cholesterol. I've heard this many years ago and always try to improve my thyroid free t3 levels.

Effects of Thyroid Dysfunction on Lipid Profile

Thyroid dysfunction has a great impact on lipids as well as a number of other cardiovascular risk factors. Hypothyroidism is relatively common and is associated with an unfavorable effect on lipids. Substitution therapy is beneficial for patients with ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Dicky]

Yes your experience is exactly what happened to me when I was on Armor thyroid. LIPIDS got better (lower LDL and higher HDL. My HDL reached 115 at its max) and SHBG increased (by around 15-20 IIRC, it's been 4 years). I also did not see any noticeable change in my free T3, T4 levels. Note: I have since discontinued the Armor. I didn't feel any better on it either.

 

[Anonymon]

Getting my thyroid right was probably more useful to me than test, and I’ve done various things over the years with highly divergent results. Mostly wanted it for gut issues as nothing else helped or budged it as I seem to have actual injuries down there. Still figuring that out. Harder when you have lower cortisol like I do.

I did 1 grain of NDT for a while. Felt a little more emotional while adjusting to it, which in my case I found was from the T4 in it, not the T3. T4 actually has a higher affinity for transport proteins that cross the blood brain barrier, so I mentally feel thyroid effects more from things with T4 than T3, and T3 alone will tend to make me go a little numb, likely from it suppressing T4 since I can fix it within a day or so by just taking T4. Responded well to test and HCG on NDT.

After NDT I was off thyroid for a while, then tried slow release T3. Made my hair great but it shed rapidly and never really grew back to what it was. Sleep was worse. At the same test and HCG dose, my total T dropped and free T almost doubled and my E2 proportionally went up as well. SHBG unchanged. Also experienced complete erectile dysfunction from not being able to feel it down there. Cialis and all else did nothing since I couldn’t feel anything down there. Coming off fixed it in short order. Tried an AI and that didn’t help at all. Tried 25 and 35mcg, things being worse in a dose dependent manner. Also felt super dehydrated and achey when drinking plain water.

Off that, I tried levothyroxine (T4) with another protocol. That had my emotions super high and my dick working great. Just 75mcg. Free T and E2 were still higher than they had been on NDT. Taking Ashwagandha also makes me very readily convert unbound T4 into T3 and had my T3 pretty high (high 4’s). Felt kind of bad when eating. Stopping Ash stopped that in short order. Hair shed a lot.

Tried T3 after that (liothyronine) in 2 15mcg pills spread out after that. Fixed my gut but broke my dick. Hair didn’t shed this time. Splitting up the dose into many mini hits further segmented from that in 25/4mcg doses had my dick working decently. T3 on its own though had me very lethargic. Memory was worse. No motivation. Very low dopamine. Free T and E2 still higher. Last test was weird but almost all of my T was free. SHBG unchanged. Glycogen retention shit no matter what I do. Reading up on it and talking to people, T3 in unbound form has different affinities for different cells than it naturally would since T4 is a transport mechanism, so T3 more affects your muscle cells and heart where as T4 for me had me feeling warmer and such.

Experimented with straight T4 and some T3 hits after that and that’s what I do now. Still figuring that out. I have trouble retaining water in general where I’d want it. T4 is very diuretic and more salt on it literally makes my fingers crack and at times my face bleed. T3 in smaller hits throughout the day seems necessary for me to keep my gut in order and in general T3 is the only thing that really helped that more than anything. Eating some things before that was debilitating at times.

I’m using my blood tests regarding hydration and my gut and dick status there as a guide for where to let it land. T4 typically makes me feel like a super hero if I have some potassium with it.

If anyone wants an easy way to up T4 T3 conversion, Ashwagandha’s got a lot of backing behind it and that’s what it did for me based on blood tests, at least when on thyroid meds in unbound form like levothyroxine. Lowers cortisol too, both of which are why I had to drop Ash. I originally left NDT because of a shortage and I got switched to something else I didn’t react well to and have generally stayed off it since then because I can’t rely on getting it or it not being recalled. Weirdest thing for me on those meds is definitely my free T and E2 jumping up with total T going down and SHBG remaining the same. Last test had my total T at 460 and 300ish of it was free. Didn’t change my test dose or anything else. Doc said maybe my free T went up to balance out the increased E2 conversion which thyroid can verifiably increase, but it’s all been really weird.

Next experiment once my current thyroid protocol sets in is trying to lower my test dose and see what happens. Was on 12iu’s a day and 720iu’s of HCG 3x a week. Going to drop test to 8iu’s and see where my total and free T lands. Kind of scary considering my last blood test at that dose had a 460 total T with almost all of it being free, but I’d like to see what happens as in theory if my free T is so much higher I could get by with less, and I’d like to retain less water in my face.

 

[TRicker]

@Anonymon How long after dropping the T3 did things level out and you regained erectile function? In your opinion, T4 or NDT did not cause the ed problems?

I've tried using T3 (Dr supervised) for a while, starting at 25mcgs all the way up to 50mcg's per day to try fix some unexplained weight gain and fatigue. My thyroid numbers weren't terrible, but my clinic thought it would be reasonable to try. The only thing it did for me was make my dick completely numb, no feeling whatsoever, ed, and severe delayed ejaculation when I did try. I'm assuming it was from the T3.
I've been off the T3 for almost a month, and still have the numbness. I'm awaiting a full panel of lab results I just took, and have a saliva cortisol test next week. As I've been told, and now know, thyroid medications are no joke!

 

[Anonymon]

@Anonymon How long after dropping the T3 did things level out and you regained erectile function? In your opinion, T4 or NDT did not cause the ed problems?

I've tried using T3 (Dr supervised) for a while, starting at 25mcgs all the way up to 50mcg's per day to try fix some unexplained weight gain and fatigue. My thyroid numbers weren't terrible, but my clinic thought it would be reasonable to try. The only thing it did for me was make my dick completely numb, no feeling whatsoever, ed, and severe delayed ejaculation when I did try. I'm assuming it was from the T3.
I've been off the T3 for almost a month, and still have the numbness. I'm awaiting a full panel of lab results I just took, and have a saliva cortisol test next week. As I've been told, and now know, thyroid medications are no joke!

On slow release T3 at 25mcg, when I dropped it to 12.5mcg, within a few days my dick was back. Definitely within a week. NDT never gave me any erectile dysfunction in the slightest at 1 grain. Although T4 seems to help things more than anything when it comes to that, there may have been a time when it still made my dick numb, but that was also when I was trying to lower my dose, so it may have been the lack of it. It’d be hard to say on T4 because I was usually using it alongside other things like hydrocortisone or cortisone acetate, but at least when I was having issues caused by taking T3, T4 would usually step in to fix it in short order, or make it better. Splitting up T3 into 5 very small doses of a 4th of a 25mcg pill and taking that throughout the day made my dick better but not great.

Thyroid hormones are really hard to work with if you have other issues since everything is connected. Messing with those has been the only thing pretty much in my entire life that caused erectile dysfunction in me.

Depending on what I was doing, having potassium drinks either helped a little with it or made other things worse. When on T4 with some T3 and adding rhodiola in small hits or hydrocortisone, having things with potassium in them made my muscles quickly deflate and I’d cramp and get very dehydrated. I would have dropped all thyroid attempts if they weren’t the only things that helped debilitating gut issues and indicated by general symptoms and blood tests.

T4 seems to be dopamine-promoting and T3 seems to be dopamine-using, which seems to be the overall mechanism at the end of the day for why my dick breaks on T3.

 

[TRicker]

On slow release T3 at 25mcg, when I dropped it to 12.5mcg, within a few days my dick was back. Definitely within a week.

Since it's been almost a month, I wonder if my thyroid is taking longer to reboot because I most likely shut it down. I'll post my labs as soon as I get them back.

 

[Anonymon]

Since it's been almost a month, I wonder if my thyroid is taking longer to reboot because I most likely shut it down. I'll post my labs as soon as I get them back.

Could be since you took way more than I did in T3 form. Slow release also seems to cause less suppression since it’s a steady physiological hit, rather than giant spikes. In general in almost everything I’ve ever done or taken, smaller amounts more frequently were superior across all metrics, sans HCG.

How did you take the T3? All at once or just split in halves?

 

[Anonymon]

I suppose of note on my blood tests throughout being on T3 and T4 in various forms, my TSH never really changed much.

 

[TRicker]

How did you take the T3? All at once or just split in halves?

I took 25mcg's in the morning and another 25mcg's in the late afternoon.
Hopefully it's just taking a while for my thyroid to reboot.

Even on 50mcg's of T3 daily, I never noticed any improvement in fatigue or fat loss.
I also never associated the ED, DE, lack of sensitivity with the T3 until I read this thread.

 

[Anonymon]

I took 25mcg's in the morning and another 25mcg's in the late afternoon.
Hopefully it's just taking a while for my thyroid to reboot.

Even on 50mcg's of T3 daily, I never noticed any improvement in fatigue or fat loss.
I also never associated the ED, DE, lack of sensitivity with the T3 until I read this thread.

I never noticed anything like that on T3, either. At first on slow release T3 I had a lot of mental energy that I blew through real quick, but for T3 that was about it, sans it also helping my gut move. About the only loss I had on any form of T3 was muscle glycogen and eventually likely a little muscle but not much. I had to up my protein despite it already being high. Talking with some people, T3 may cause you to convert more protein to sugar and blow through it. Not an ounce of fat came off from T3 though on me. Nothing. Granted I also wasn’t trying to lose fat. My metabolism felt a little higher but it seemingly all drawing from lean tissue and not fat in my case if I didn’t eat enough, which sucks. In some studies on that, additional weight loss when upping T3 in people does seem to almost exclusively come from lean tissue. It having an affinity for skeletal muscle also supports that, as T4 usually needs to be converted in cells like fat cells while T3 seems more likely to pass them over to eat your muscle instead.

Everybody’s different but that’s been my experience. On T4 at the same time, little 6ish mcg hits of T3 were relatively simulating and my dick worked immensely better. At least if it makes you feel better, if it is the T3 that did it, it will go away, so it’s not like your dick’s broke forever. Sucks to have it happen at all but it being temporary is a much more comforting thought than permanent I’d imagine. I originally started T3 with some topical finasteride and was worried I’d done my dick in for good from the fin but that didn’t do anything like that to me in that case. Currently trying to go to 75mcg T4 and 12.5mcg or 0 of T3 and see how I do and I admit pretty much every free moment I’m hoping my dick didn’t break again and trying to see if I can still get a boner like some kind of deranged lunatic. When I wake up, on the can, after eating, before bed, just checking in and asking if my buddy’s still awake down there.

 

[TRicker]

just checking in and asking if my buddy’s still awake down there.

Haha, I feel ya man, I do the same thing!
I'm hoping you're right, and if the numbness is from the T3, that it will resolve once my system is back on track.

It's funny, T3 is "supposed" to be a known fat burner, but it did absolutely nothing for either of us. I wouldn't be surprised if I lost muscle on it.

 

[Anonymon]

Haha, I feel ya man, I do the same thing!
I'm hoping you're right, and if the numbness is from the T3, that it will resolve once my system is back on track.

It's funny, T3 is "supposed" to be a known fat burner, but it did absolutely nothing for either of us. I wouldn't be surprised if I lost muscle on it.

People’s bodies seem to be either T4-focused or T3-focused, relying on intracellular T3 by T4 conversion or more things just coming in from T3 flat out into the cell. T4 usually fixes most things for me that T3 causes in short order, including giving me energy and making me feel like most people would feel on TRT, like my mind is dancing and happy all the time and effort feels more rewarding.

Another wrinkle might be that more thyroid reduces CBG, which is like the cortisol SHBG. My cortisol’s usually too low, and without that to help get it to cells that in naturopathic theory facilitate thyroid hormones to work, taking more thyroid might make me functionally hypothyroid without SHBG changes and kind of feel like I’m low test. My own bloodwork shows wonky things too on thyroid, with E2 going up and almost all my T being free at one point, which would seem to be more that it’s not going into the cells than anything else I would imagine. Tried adrenal cortex for a bit and that instantly had my dick hard as a rock, and later on taking cortisol stuff at times helped too, though I wouldn’t recommend it. When your dick doesn’t work you have a lot of time to think things through as you can see.

I was on 31ish mcg T3 in 5 hits for a bit after coming off T4 alongside 2x15mcg T3, and my dick worked amazingly great for a bit alongside other positive things, then that dissipated as the T4 seemingly left my system. Added in T4 again at 25mcg and that helped, then 50, and I’m on 75 now as I come down on T3 and maybe even off again. The more T4 I get and the less T3 I have, the more of a human being I feel like, particularly if I have potassium. T3/T4 in general increase and activate sodium/potassium pump sites, so either sodium or potassium affect me a lot more while on thyroid hormones. Too much sodium can actually break my dick and dopamine levels, whereas potassium does the opposite. Fairly quickly too, as in within a day. Also lose the ability to sweat with more salt, potassium drinks restoring all that and the vividness of all my senses.

Since lowering T3, and raising T4, I actually dropped weight on the scale while making 0 dietary changes and eating the same things exactly on different days and working out the same to the letter. Muscles are fuller too any time T3 goes down, usually happening over the next day or two even with a 6mcg drop. If I have potassium on this scheme then when I have more carbs I can actually feel and see my muscles twitching and then by the next day they’re more pumped. I don’t seem like the type that would have had higher thyroid ever in his life, so it could be that I’m hyper sensitive to it.

I’ve known many guys that ran T3 for bodybuilding fat loss cycles that took about a month to feel recovered from them. If after a bit more off T3 and a blood test and your dick’s still broke, I might consider trying 25mcg of levothyroxine in the morning. That’d be a quarter of most tablets sold at 100mcg. For me, any addition’s usually fairly noticeable in short order, within days, if not the next day when I would take it before bed (don’t do that any more since it helps my gut more during the day in divided doses). Hopefully you won’t need anything, but that helps me, and goes faster when I have potassium drinks.

Glad I’m not the only one whose dick was broken down by thyroid hormones.

 

[TRicker]

@Anonymon Thanks for the tips! It's definitely comforting to know we're not alone.
I'll give it another week or so, and my labs should be back by then. If things don't improve, I will try the T4 and/or potassium. I'll report back shortly.
Thanks again!

@BillyJ03z Once my labs come back, I'll check my shbg numbers, and let you know if the T3 raised it. I have low shbg, mostly due to TRT. It hovers around 17 on TRT, and moves back up to mid 20's when I've taken a break from testosterone. Although for me, even if T3 did raise my shbg, it still didn't make me feel any better.

 

[BillyJ03z]

@BillyJ03z Once my labs come back, I'll check my shbg numbers, and let you know if the T3 raised it. I have low shbg, mostly due to TRT. It hovers around 17 on TRT, and moves back up to mid 20's when I've taken a break from testosterone. Although for me, even if T3 did raise my shbg, it still didn't make me feel any better.

I've been trying for a long time to get T3 from my current DR to add along side my Armour thyroid but she won't prescribe it, so I finally got a t3 script off Push Health online... I was taking 3 grain Armour (2 grains AM and 1 grain mid afternoon).. Now I'm taking 1.5 grains w/ 12.5mcg T3 AM and 1 grain w/ 12.5mcg Mid-afternoon..... I will stay on this for a week or two and add more T3 if needed....

@TRicker Do you think you might need to add more T3? From all my research we need to play around with the dosing... Also, watch out from too much T4 as it can increase RT3....

I am doing my labs in 3 weeks, so I will also report back my results..

 

[TRicker]

@BillyJ03z I'm not sure if I needed more T3, as I went up to 50mcg's per day.
The only thing that was really out of range on previous labs was high ReverseT3, which is why I only tried the T3, and not NDT or T4.
Since I've been totally off for almost a month, I'll wait to get my labs back and reassess.
I'll report the results once I get them.

 

[BillyJ03z]

@BillyJ03z I'm not sure if I needed more T3, as I went up to 50mcg's per day.
The only thing that was really out of range on previous labs was high ReverseT3, which is why I only tried the T3, and not NDT or T4.
Since I've been totally off for almost a month, I'll wait to get my labs back and reassess.
I'll report the results once I get them.

Just fyi... if you were running only T3 then you may have needed possibly 75mcg or higher... especially when you are trying to clear out RT3.....

 

[TRicker]

Just fyi... if you were running only T3 then you may have needed possibly 75mcg or higher... especially when you are trying to clear out RT3.....

Shoot, I should've tried going higher when I was on it. But now that I've stopped, I'm going to wait for my labs to come back, and I'll give it some more time to see if I restore any sensation down below.
If all else fails, I may try the higher dose. Thanks for the info!

 

[BillyJ03z]

Shoot, I should've tried going higher when I was on it. But now that I've stopped, I'm going to wait for my labs to come back, and I'll give it some more time to see if I restore any sensation down below.
If all else fails, I may try the higher dose. Thanks for the info!

This has great info Stop the Thyroid Madness™ - Hypothyroidism and thyroid
mistreatment and this Dosing with T3-only (whether by itself, or in combination with other thyroid meds) - Stop The Thyroid Madness Also, struggling on T3 may indicate a cortisol problem

 

[TRicker]

@BillyJ03z Very good info, thank you!
I'm having a saliva cortisol test next week.
My TRT clinic and myself suspected either a thyroid problem or cortisol problem, due to symptoms of weight gain, fatigue, and low libido. All the thyroid labs showed in the normal range, except for the high RT3. So we tried the T3 first, and will now test the cortisol. My trt doc suspects high cortisol due to a stressful job and long hours. My endo didn't think the high RT3 mattered at all, but did agree to the saliva cortisol test.
Hopefully I'm inching towards some answers, and I'll keep you posted!