Natural lifter or not on trt

[jsmith21896]

I've been on trt for almost 3 years now. My protocol has changed over the years but for at least the last year and a half, I've been injecting .16 of 200mg/cc eod in my delts, HCG .250 or .200 eod in abdomen. My last lab was 830 total test on the day of my injection but before the injection, so my trough. Earlier this year I had it done on the day between injections, total 1300, free 42.38. So I would say that's my range, 830-1300. I lift quite a lot, and I hear people talking about natural vs roids, I understand I don't have a T of 3000 so I'm not a juicer, but would I be considered natural at 42 years old with those numbers? Thanks for the input.

 

[cigpk]

I've been on trt for almost 3 years now. My protocol has changed over the years but for at least the last year and a half, I've been injecting .16 of 200mg/cc eod in my delts, HCG .250 or .200 eod in abdomen. My last lab was 830 total test on the day of my injection but before the injection, so my trough. Earlier this year I had it done on the day between injections, total 1300, free 42.38. So I would say that's my range, 830-1300. I lift quite a lot, and I hear people talking about natural vs roids, I understand I don't have a T of 3000 so I'm not a juicer, but would I be considered natural at 42 years old with those numbers? Thanks for the input.

here is my take: You inject exogenous testosterone into your body. You’re no longer considered “natural” unless you quit taking testosterone. I’m not in any way saying you should feel bad about that. However, no one on TRT can be considered natural despite what their levels may be on any given protocol.

others may feel differently but just my take on it.

also - don’t kid yourself and think that there are many people running around with T levels touching 1300 at age 42.

 

[slicktop]

It's semantics. Some would say any exogenous T means you're not natural, which to me makes about as much sense as saying a diabetic taking insulin isn't natural, or taking thyroid medication isn't natural. Since this is a male health and TRT forum, I'll start by assuming we can all agree that stance is BS.

And then there's intent. If this were a court of law, that'd be a big deal. Is the individual taking testosterone, at any dose, for the sole purpose of bodybuilding? Did they acquire it illegally? That's probably considered "steroids", like if it were a 30 year old with a natural t of 650 and absolutely zero low t symptoms boosting himself to 1100, just hoping to build more mass.

Personally, when I think of steroids, I think of very high, supraphysiological testosterone levels (well above your values) brought on by doses around 500mg a week, way more than any natural, healthy male would ever produce. And that's typically a "starter" cycle, often only done once, so then people move on to stacks of deca/tren/dbol, etc. They take medicine to get bigger then they take more medicine to counter the side effects of the other medicines. To me, THAT'S steroids. (for the record, IDGAF, and have no disrespect for those doing so)

So, are your values higher than average these days for a 42 year old "natural" American male? Sure. To which I'd say: "so what?". Is it helping you? Do you feel good? Is this the right dose of doctor-prescribed TRT for you? If so, you're a natural IMHO.

 

[Golfboy307]

I think the crux of the question is whether or not you are competing and gaining an unfair advantage. I am a runner, and do fairly well in my age group these days (50-55). I often wonder if I am at an advantage (probably) vs. the guy next to me with total of <300. Did I bump him out of a medal? Who cares right? I guess it is the principle of the thing. Of course, if you are competing in a professional sport or the Olympics, they have already answered the question for you. Only "naturals" allowed, until you get caught. If you are only bodybuilding for your own health/enjoyment, then does it matter?

 

[slicktop]

I think the crux of the question is whether or not you are competing and gaining an unfair advantage. I am a runner, and do fairly well in my age group these days (50-55). I often wonder if I am at an advantage (probably) vs. the guy next to me with total of <300. Did I bump him out of a medal? Who cares right? I guess it is the principle of the thing.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I'd agree with you a lot more if we didn't live in a weird ass time where biological adult males can compete in female sports competitions but anastrozole is a banned PED for men.

 

[Golfboy307]

Heh heh, well said slicktop!

 

[fifty]

Injecting T into your ass = not natural

 

[Joey786]

A man that doesn't take testosterone has to make sure to eat well with adequate micronutrients and calories, get enough sleep, not be under a ton of stress etc... to maintain his testosterone levels or else levels will decrease. Someone on trt just has to keep taking testosterone and his levels wont decrease besides the normal flucuations with his chosen delivery method. For example natural bodybuilders during contest prep will be on low calories, high trains loads, plus what ever stress they have in their daily lives. By the end of contest prep they will be hypogonadal. Someone on trt can be put under the same conditions and their levels will not change. Trt isn't going to give you huge muscle gains but I believe guys on trt have an advantage.

 

[Vince Carter]

Natural is a level not because you use Test. Every sport and USADA/WADA has a cutoff that determines your culpability.

Natural is me using 10mg. Unnatural is let's just 100mg a day.

I don't think it's the substance. Even USADA has a TUE or Therapeutic Use Exemption.

But then is is natural that my trough free T is double the lab range...probably not. Probably couldn't pass a piss test in that regard.

 

[Charliebizz]

There is a reason why trt is banned in natural body building class and mma. Your at an advantage. When you train and diet a natural guys t levels are going to take a big hit. When you are on trt you can keep those levels up diet harder and train harder end of story.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

What Joey and Charlie said. A huge issue for someone not on T is suppressing their levels due to over-training, illness etc. , and almost any level of T replacement removes that issue. However, so what? As Josh Mittledorf says, there is no such thing as natural anti-aging. BTW, a vast number of common and non-banned things such as ibuprofen and amino acid powders are not natural either. So what.

 

[Charliebizz]

What Joey and Charlie said. A huge issue for someone not on T is suppressing their levels due to over-training, illness etc. , and almost any level of T replacement removes that issue. However, so what? As Josh Mittledorf says, there is no such thing as natural anti-aging. BTW, a vast number of common and non-banned things such as ibuprofen and amino acid powders are not natural either. So what.

i agree with you on the so what part hahah. But to one of the guys that posted above. No taking insulin for diabetes is not natural. Neither is thyroid lol. How is that even in question. Injecting test into your body is not natural very cut and dry. But if it helps you live a better life who cares.

 

[Charliebizz]

Natural is a level not because you use Test. Every sport and USADA/WADA has a cutoff that determines your culpability.

Natural is me using 10mg. Unnatural is let's just 100mg a day.

I don't think it's the substance. Even USADA has a TUE or Therapeutic Use Exemption.

But then is is natural that my trough free T is double the lab range...probably not. Probably couldn't pass a piss test in that regard.

im not sure If that’s true Vince ufc has a trt ban. I’m sure it’s just more then testing testosterone. One would assume they test lh and fsh. And other markers to be able to tell. I could be wrong but how could they just ban trt by only checking t levels ?

 

[Cataceous]

Natural is a level not because you use Test. Every sport and USADA/WADA has a cutoff that determines your culpability.
...
I don't think it's the substance. Even USADA has a TUE or Therapeutic Use Exemption.
...

WADA: Anabolic agents are prohibited.
...
1. ANABOLIC ANDROGENIC STEROIDS (AAS)
...
B. ENDOGENOUS** AAS AND THEIR METABOLITES AND ISOMERS, WHEN ADMINISTERED EXOGENOUSLY, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO:
...
Testosterone
...
[R]

Maybe things have changed, but it used to be virtually impossible to get TUEs for TRT.

 

[Charliebizz]

Only simple minded people think that injecting yourself with test makes you no longer natural. Exogenous or not, testosterone is all the same.

What defines "natural" is your levels. Within physiological range = natty, supraphysiological = unnatural.

really. So taking a hormone suspended in a carrier oil and injecting it into your muscle In turn shutting down your own testicles and hpta is natural just because the actual test is chemically the same ? Come on man. Very far from simple minded

 

[Charliebizz]

WADA: Anabolic agents are prohibited.
...
1. ANABOLIC ANDROGENIC STEROIDS (AAS)
...
B. ENDOGENOUS** AAS AND THEIR METABOLITES AND ISOMERS, WHEN ADMINISTERED EXOGENOUSLY, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO:
...
Testosterone
...
[R]

Maybe things have changed, but it used to be virtually impossible to get TUEs for TRT.

Ufc 100% did away with trt exemption.

 

[Charliebizz]

See. The problem lies with people misusing the term. When they say you're not natural, what they mean is "you have an advantage" or "you're cheating" and should say it as such, instead of butchering the term "not natural". I've already outlined what defines one as natural.

This thread should have been called "Unfair advantage on TRT or not".

when it comes to lifting yes it would be considered an advantage. They have ban trt in natural body building class also. I was trying to find the video I saw on Facebook about it very good video explaining the advantages of trt and lifting. They did a bunch of studies on t levels during contest prep and one of the natty guys total t was like 64 around 2 weeks out or something crazy like that.

 

[Vvs1]

I did bodybuilding for 3 years, and can definitely spot which ones are on some type of hormone/hgh assuming he’s consistently lifting.

Natural guys might have a 700-800 T level, but his daily T level drops to below 100 or so by nighttime.

Testosterone goes way beyond muscle strength and growth. Something like improvements/ healing of digestive organs would be a huge advantage. Another is antidepressive benefits. Natural can easily burnout/ go into depression.

 

[Vince Carter]

I would categorically disagree with being lumped in with steroid abusers which is how you're reaching to make this sound; natural, or not.

 

[slicktop]

i agree with you on the so what part hahah. But to one of the guys that posted above. No taking insulin for diabetes is not natural. Neither is thyroid lol. How is that even in question. Injecting test into your body is not natural very cut and dry. But if it helps you live a better life who cares.

I mean, you can be close-minded if you want to, but an individual taking a substance that the body produces to keep them within the normal, NATURAL range, is natural. Let's just look at some of the many definitions of natural to help explain the way I'm seeing this:

*being in accordance with or determined by nature (are you within natural levels? you're natural.)
*implanted or being as if implanted by nature : seemingly inborn (again, are you within natural levels? you're natural.)
*having an essential relation with someone or something : following from the nature of the one in question (is there an essential relation between health males and the normal physiological range of testosterone? Yep. Are you within natural levels? You're natural.)
*having a normal or usual character (Is a male having a normal testosterone level considered normal and usual? Well, that's actually how the define the "normal" range, so yes.)
*closely resembling an original : true to nature (Again, are you within the normal physiological, natural range? Natural.)
*based on the state of things in nature; constituted by nature (Getting pretty obvious and repetitive here, huh?)