Nandrolone for a cancer patient?

[Blackhawk]

I have had a very rough go with a blood cancer for the last 2 1/2 years. I've lost weight, and more importantly, muscle mass, as my body composition has shifted due to inactivity and in ability to exercise. I am down to 135 pounds, and my weight is still ever so slowly decreasing. There are other elements to my condition, but simply, I've reachced a point where it seems the tide is turning, and I may be able to start recovery. Efforts so far have not been encouraging. I do the bare minimum that does not create a need for many days recovery, so it is very very little, and for example, my shoulder musculature is so wasted, I can't even lift my arms overhead to the side like a jumping jack type motion. I am starting up with my favorite PT again, but the real problem is that the muscles are not responding to exercise, and I just keep losing mass.

I want to try Nandrolone to help rebuild. If Nelson and others can do it for HIV, why is this not common for people like me wasting from cancer.

I have researched a fair bit, and basically found no real contraindications. I want to go into it fully informed, so welcome any input if anyone has done this for cancer rehab.

@Nelson Vergel 's 200mg Testosterone+200mg Nandrolone per week back when he was regaining from HIV is a bit of a scary prospect to me. I previously was put on T cyp 150mg/week which resulted in high HCT/HGB and E2. It was Hell for me to reduce dose repeatedly to reach a reasonable maintainable level.

I am currently on just 70mg/week. There are other complications with my TRT dose and it's effectiveness, and seems until my liver comes back to normal, I will be chasing a better balance.

The one silver lining to this for right now is that due to receiving 82 units of packed red blood cell transfusions, I have severe iron overload. I was receiving chelation. But now that the anemia is in remission, I am having plebotomies every 2 weeks, and luckily (in a twisted way), there is no risk of low ferritin. It has come down from around 3500 to most recently 1750.

Anyway, I feel safe to start Nandrolone, but I am afraid that when the time comes to reduce dose or stop, I will go trough Hell again. So my main question is: Has anyone had a bad time getting off Nandrolone?

And who else has used Nandrolone for regaining muscle mass from a diseased status?

Thoughts about dose? I need enough to turn around a serious degree of muscle loss.n I have always been lean and a hard gainer, but have been up to 150 pounds of strong lean muscle in the past in my 50's. I need to regain about 15 pounds of muscle and burn fat off this emaciated body.

I have a consult coming up with Dr Saya this week.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Hello @Blackhawk

Thanks for sharing your story. I am sorry that you had to go through all that but I am glad that you overcame. What is your current height and weight? What kind of blood cancer did you have and how long ago?

If you have hematocrit issues, you may consider ibutamoren.

Oral growth hormone enhancer MK-677 (ibutamoren)

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1998 Feb;83(2):362-9. Two-month treatment of obese subjects with the oral growth hormone (GH) secretagogue MK-677 increases GH secretion, fat-free mass, and energy expenditure. Svensson J1, Lönn L, Jansson JO, Murphy G, Wyss D, Krupa D, Cerchio K, Polvino W, Gertz B...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Blackhawk]

Hello @Blackhawk

Thanks for sharing your story. I am sorry that you had to go through all that but I am glad that you overcame. What is your current height and weight? What kind of blood cancer did you have and how long ago?

If you have hematocrit issues, you may consider ibutamoren.

Oral growth hormone enhancer MK-677 (ibutamoren)

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1998 Feb;83(2):362-9. Two-month treatment of obese subjects with the oral growth hormone (GH) secretagogue MK-677 increases GH secretion, fat-free mass, and energy expenditure. Svensson J1, Lönn L, Jansson JO, Murphy G, Wyss D, Krupa D, Cerchio K, Polvino W, Gertz B...

www.excelmale.com

Thanks for the reply @Nelson Vergel.

Hematocrit is not an issue at this time, only 44-ish. I have not yet fully recovered from the anemia, my red cells are large (High MCV, and MCH, so HGB is in normal range, (16.4 yesterday) but RBC is still low. I am getting phlebotomies to remove iron, not because of HCT/HGB.

Current height/weight 5'10" 134. My ideal weight as an adult has been 145-150, so I am right about at that 10% loss proportion. I am losing a pound every few weeks now.

It is Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia (CLL). My course with it has been anything but "normal" for CLL. It has been very aggressive, I've had multiple treatment failures, life threatening infections, hospitalizations, transfusion dependent anemia etc. I reached initial "remission" about 10 months ago, but the effect on my bone marrow has been very long to rebound. Right now is the first time in 2.5 years the marrow is producing adequate blood cells, except B-cells. CLL is a cancer of the B-cells. The CLL cells do not function as immune cells, and the treatment is indiscriminate when it comes to normal B-cells. It kills them all. So while other white cells and red cells are getting better, I essentially have no functional B-cells. (Maybe TMI, as it doesn't really pertain to the task at hand to rebuild muscle)


Nelson, I read "Built to Survive" once over and will go back and read the sections that pertain to me more in depth. What I haven;t found clear is what kind of dosage would be useful to me. I am afraid of increasing T cyp to 200 and adding nandrolone at 200, and would like to start lower, but I don't know what kind of dose is needed to be effective. I am sure Dr Saya will have an idea, but I also value your outlook as you have worked on this with sick people for decades.

EDIT: Oh, I will read about ibutamoren, but is liver toxicity and issue with this drug? My liver is hurting from the iron overload and cancer treatment drugs. Enzymes are getting a little better, but have been ~2-3X the top of normal range for over 6 months.

 

[tareload]

Anabolic Therapy in Modern Medicine

Anabolic therapies have been found to be useful in the treatment of numerous diseases and conditions and their medical uses continue to expand. This work is a technical and comprehensive study of anabolic therapy, covering a wide range of diseases and conditions. Beginning with a description of...

books.google.com

More prophetic than comprehensive but another reference to peruse. Long story short 100 mg/week of ND or up to 20 mg/day of oxandrolone in addition to your very reasonble TRT regimen.

With your risk/reward profile, I'll be surprised if your provider doesn't support anabolic therapy since loss of FFM is a strong predictor of mortality. I wish you the best and full recovery.

Best wishes.

 

[Vince]

Significantly lower serum melatonin levels were observed in CLL patients compared to healthy subjects. Patient had misalignment of the internal clock with the external light–dark cycle. The circadian rhythm of melatonin was disrupted, and the levels of melatonin were low compared to healthy subjects.

National Center for Biotechnology Information › pmc

Melatonin: does it have utility in the treatment of haematological neoplasms?​

 

[Blackhawk]

Anabolic Therapy in Modern Medicine

Anabolic therapies have been found to be useful in the treatment of numerous diseases and conditions and their medical uses continue to expand. This work is a technical and comprehensive study of anabolic therapy, covering a wide range of diseases and conditions. Beginning with a description of...

books.google.com

More prophetic than comprehensive but another reference to peruse. Long story short 100 mg/week of ND or up to 20 mg/day of oxandrolone in addition to your very reasonble TRT regimen.

With your risk/reward profile, I'll be surprised if your provider doesn't support anabolic therapy since loss of FFM is a strong predictor of mortality. I wish you the best and full recovery.

Best wishes.

Thanks, I don't think he will have any significant objection, but it is not in his parlance.

 

[tareload]

Thanks, I don't think he will have any significant objection, but it is not in his parlance.

If referring to above provider, it is definitely in his parlance. Sorry if I confused your reference. I thought you were referring to JS at Defy.

 

[Vince]

Melatonin is also a big immune system booster.

"The safety data on melatonin is astounding. So far no one has been able to find a toxic dose! Many of the leading researchers on melatonin in the world take more than 100 mg every day just to prevent cancer. I routinely start all my cancer patients on a minimum of 60 mg per day and use up to...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Blackhawk]

Significantly lower serum melatonin levels were observed in CLL patients compared to healthy subjects. Patient had misalignment of the internal clock with the external light–dark cycle. The circadian rhythm of melatonin was disrupted, and the levels of melatonin were low compared to healthy subjects.
View attachment 20437
National Center for Biotechnology Information › pmc

Melatonin: does it have utility in the treatment of haematological neoplasms?​

Thanks Vince. The only times I've tried melatonin were for 8-10 hour time zone changes with travel. It didn't go well, I did better without it. Nevertheless, I will read this and consider it!

 

[Blackhawk]

If referring to above provider, it is definitely in his parlance. Sorry if I confused your reference. I thought you were referring to JS at Defy.

I am referring to my CLL specialist.

I have discussed AAS with Dr Saya a bit, through the cancer but the unknowns relating to the ever changing medical landscape in my body, plus the trouble I had with higher doses of T led me to decide AAS was not right for me. The conditions are different now, since I am recovring on some levels, and the LBM is a main problem at this time.

 

[Vince]

Thanks Vince. The only times I've tried melatonin were for 8-10 hour time zone changes with travel. It didn't go well, I did better without it. Nevertheless, I will read this and consider it!

I've been supplementing with over 100 mg of melatonin for over a year now. I research it because my wife got: cancer. I'm a strong believer in its benefits. I take it throughout the day.

 

[madman]

I have had a very rough go with a blood cancer for the last 2 1/2 years. I've lost weight, and more importantly, muscle mass, as my body composition has shifted due to inactivity and in ability to exercise. I am down to 135 pounds, and my weight is still ever so slowly decreasing. There are other elements to my condition, but simply, I've reachced a point where it seems the tide is turning, and I may be able to start recovery. Efforts so far have not been encouraging. I do the bare minimum that does not create a need for many days recovery, so it is very very little, and for example, my shoulder musculature is so wasted, I can't even lift my arms overhead to the side like a jumping jack type motion. I am starting up with my favorite PT again, but the real problem is that the muscles are not responding to exercise, and I just keep losing mass.

I want to try Nandrolone to help rebuild. If Nelson and others can do it for HIV, why is this not common for people like me wasting from cancer.

I have researched a fair bit, and basically found no real contraindications. I want to go into it fully informed, so welcome any input if anyone has done this for cancer rehab.

@Nelson Vergel 's 200mg Testosterone+200mg Nandrolone per week back when he was regaining from HIV is a bit of a scary prospect to me. I previously was put on T cyp 150mg/week which resulted in high HCT/HGB and E2. It was Hell for me to reduce dose repeatedly to reach a reasonable maintainable level.

I am currently on just 70mg/week. There are other complications with my TRT dose and it's effectiveness, and seems until my liver comes back to normal, I will be chasing a better balance.

The one silver lining to this for right now is that due to receiving 82 units of packed red blood cell transfusions, I have severe iron overload. I was receiving chelation. But now that the anemia is in remission, I am having plebotomies every 2 weeks, and luckily (in a twisted way), there is no risk of low ferritin. It has come down from around 3500 to most recently 1750.

Anyway, I feel safe to start Nandrolone, but I am afraid that when the time comes to reduce dose or stop, I will go trough Hell again. So my main question is: Has anyone had a bad time getting off Nandrolone?

And who else has used Nandrolone for regaining muscle mass from a diseased status?

Thoughts about dose? I need enough to turn around a serious degree of muscle loss.n I have always been lean and a hard gainer, but have been up to 150 pounds of strong lean muscle in the past in my 50's. I need to regain about 15 pounds of muscle and burn fat off this emaciated body.

I have a consult coming up with Dr Saya this week.

I've reachced a point where it seems the tide is turning, and I may be able to start recovery.

Glad to hear after everything you have been dealing with over the last 2.5 years.


I've lost weight, and more importantly, muscle mass, as my body composition has shifted due to inactivity and in ability to exercise. I am down to 135 pounds, and my weight is still ever so slowly decreasing.

I want to try Nandrolone to help rebuild.

When using testosterone/AAS with the goal of increasing muscle mass/strength the key factors are diet/training.

Keeping in mind genetics will have the final say.

No amount of testosterone/AAS is going to work without taking in enough calories (carbohydrates/proteins/fats) and following a proper weight training protocol.

Most men on trt are using 100-200 mg/week which would result in having healthy, high, absurdly high FT levels depending on the protocol (dose T/injection frequency).

One of the main benefits of having healthy testosterone levels is improvements in body composition (increased muscle/decreased adipose), especially when following a proper diet/training regimen.

Keep in mind that gains in muscle mass/strength are not going to be significant when using therapeutic doses of 100-200 mg T/week.

You would get more bang for your buck injecting 200 mg T/week vs 100 mg.

Anyone claiming to get huge on 200 mg T/week is carrying a shitload of water!

Unfortunately many will not tolerate the higher-end dose of 200mg/week due to the side effects caused by running very high FT levels.

Even then some may struggle running 150mg T/week due to hitting very high FT levels.

Comes down to the individual.

The workaround would be lowering your T dose <100 mg/week and adding in nandrolone 100-200 mg/week.

Its main advantage is its strong anabolic/anti-catabolic properties and is known to bind strongly to the AR (>testosterone).

ND is a potent available anabolic steroid with minimal androgenic side effects.


Thoughts about dose? I need enough to turn around a serious degree of muscle loss.n I have always been lean and a hard gainer, but have been up to 150 pounds of strong lean muscle in the past in my 50's. I need to regain about 15 pounds of muscle and burn fat off this emaciated body.

I would look into 200 mg ND/week for 12 weeks.

Overall sides should be minimal other than increased RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit.

The dose will play a big role and even then comes down to the individual.

No one can tell you how your body will react to said compound only time will tell.

What you really need to hammer down is your nutrition and training protocol.

You are a hard gainer so forget the low-carb/keto, carnivore diets.

Be far better off following a moderate-high complex carb, moderate protein, moderate fat diet.

Regardless of your body type, it is much easier to pack on quality mass when consuming complex carbs.

Muscle will always be bigger, fuller, and harder when glycogen stores are topped up!

Strength/recovery is also better.

Taking in enough quality calories (complex carbs, proteins, fats), meeting your daily protein requirements (1 gram/pound LBM) spread evenly throughout the day combined with a good training plan and you will be good to go.

You are on 70 mg T/week.

Have no clue where your trough FT sits but hopefully it is where you feel best.

If you feel more comfortable starting on 100 mg ND/week do what you feel is best but you will get more bang for your buck going with 150-200mg/week.


Anyway, I feel safe to start Nandrolone, but I am afraid that when the time comes to reduce dose or stop, I will go trough Hell again. So my main question is: Has anyone had a bad time getting off Nandrolone?

You will maximize your gains/minimal sides overall using 200 mg ND/week for 12 weeks but keep in mind that if you decide to stop it would be highly doubtful that you can maintain those new gains.

Some may just decide to go back to using therapeutic doses 50-100 mg/week long-term for the joint/bone pain benefits.

 

[Blackhawk]

I've reachced a point where it seems the tide is turning, and I may be able to start recovery.

Glad to hear after everything you have been dealing with over the last 2.5 years.


I've lost weight, and more importantly, muscle mass, as my body composition has shifted due to inactivity and in ability to exercise. I am down to 135 pounds, and my weight is still ever so slowly decreasing.

I want to try Nandrolone to help rebuild.

When using testosterone/AAS with the goal of increasing muscle mass/strength the key factors are diet/training.

Keeping in mind genetics will have the final say.

No amount of testosterone/AAS is going to work without taking in enough calories (carbohydrates/proteins/fats) and following a proper weight training protocol.

Most men on trt are using 100-200 mg/week which would result in having healthy, high, absurdly high FT levels depending on the protocol (dose T/injection frequency).

One of the main benefits of having healthy testosterone levels is improvements in body composition (increased muscle/decreased adipose), especially when following a proper diet/training regimen.

Keep in mind that gains in muscle mass/strength are not going to be significant when using therapeutic doses of 100-200 mg T/week.

You would get more bang for your buck injecting 200 mg T/week vs 100 mg.

Anyone claiming to get huge on 200 mg T/week is carrying a shitload of water!

Unfortunately many will not tolerate the higher-end dose of 200mg/week due to the side effects caused by running very high FT levels.

Even then some may struggle running 150mg T/week due to hitting very high FT levels.

Comes down to the individual.

The workaround would be lowering your T dose <100 mg/week and adding in nandrolone 100-200 mg/week.

Its main advantage is its strong anabolic/anti-catabolic properties and is known to bind strongly to the AR (>testosterone).

ND is a potent available anabolic steroid with minimal androgenic side effects.


Thoughts about dose? I need enough to turn around a serious degree of muscle loss.n I have always been lean and a hard gainer, but have been up to 150 pounds of strong lean muscle in the past in my 50's. I need to regain about 15 pounds of muscle and burn fat off this emaciated body.

I would look into 200 mg ND/week for 12 weeks.

Overall sides should be minimal other than increased RBCs/hemoglobin/hematocrit.

The dose will play a big role and even then comes down to the individual.

No one can tell you how your body will react to said compound only time will tell.

What you really need to hammer down is your nutrition and training protocol.

You are a hard gainer so forget the low-carb/keto, carnivore diets.

Be far better off following a moderate-high complex carb, moderate protein, moderate fat diet.

Taking in enough quality calories (complex carbs, proteins, fats), meeting your daily protein requirements (1 gram/pound LBM) spread evenly throughout the day combined with a good training plan and you will be good to go.

You are on 70 mg T/week.

Have no clue where your trough FT sits but hopefully it is where you feel best.

If you feel more comfortable starting on 100 mg ND/week do what you feel is best but you will get more bang for your buck going with 150-200mg/week.


Anyway, I feel safe to start Nandrolone, but I am afraid that when the time comes to reduce dose or stop, I will go trough Hell again. So my main question is: Has anyone had a bad time getting off Nandrolone?

You will maximize your gains/minimal sides overall using 200 mg ND/week for 12 weeks but keep in mind that if you decide to stop it would be highly doubtful that you can maintain those new gains.

Some may just decide to go back to using therapeutic doses 50-100 mg/week long-term for the joint/bone pain benefits.

Thanks @madman, your input is really helpful.

 

[madman]

Role of androgens and SARMs in cachexia

Cachexia is a complex wasting syndrome, accompanying a variety of end-stage chronic diseases, such as cancer, heart failure, and human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) infection/acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS). It significantly affects patients’ quality of life and survival. Multiple...

www.excelmale.com

 

[madman]

Can conditions of skeletal muscle loss be improved by combining exercise with anabolic agents?

Abstract Sarcopenia, cachexia, and atrophy due to inactivity and disease states are characterized by a loss of skeletal muscle mass, often accompanied by reduced levels of anabolic hormones (e.g. testosterone). These conditions are associated with an increase in mortality, hospitalization, and...

www.excelmale.com

How to Increase Muscle Mass in Critically Ill Patients

Abstract Purpose of Review Decades of research on nutrition and exercise for athletes and bodybuilders have yielded various strategies to promote anabolism and improve muscle health and growth. We reviewed these interventions in the context of muscle loss in critically ill patients...

www.excelmale.com

 

[madman]

This is critical!

You are a hard gainer so forget the low-carb/keto, carnivore diets.

Be far better off following a moderate-high complex carb, moderate protein, moderate fat diet.

Regardless of your body type, it is much easier to pack on quality mass when consuming complex carbs.

Muscle will always be bigger, fuller, and harder when glycogen stores are topped up!

Strength/recovery is also better.

Taking in enough quality calories (complex carbs, proteins, fats), meeting your daily protein requirements (1 gram/pound LBM) spread evenly throughout the day combined with a good training plan and you will be good to go.

 

[ajax31]

I've been supplementing with over 100 mg of melatonin for over a year now. I research it because my wife got: cancer. I'm a strong believer in its benefits. I take it throughout the day.

Does taking melatonin multiple times during the day cause you insomnia or any sleep issues during the night?

 

[Blackhawk]

This is critical!

You are a hard gainer so forget the low-carb/keto, carnivore diets.

Be far better off following a moderate-high complex carb, moderate protein, moderate fat diet.

Regardless of your body type, it is much easier to pack on quality mass when consuming complex carbs.

Muscle will always be bigger, fuller, and harder when glycogen stores are topped up!

Strength/recovery is also better.

Taking in enough quality calories (complex carbs, proteins, fats), meeting your daily protein requirements (1 gram/pound LBM) spread evenly throughout the day combined with a good training plan and you will be good to go.

This is valuable. I went keto for a relatively short time during the cancer because my blood glucose was wonky. And I experience severe energy swings related to ingesting any carbs but slow carbs balanced with Fat and protein.

Most of the time, I have eaten a reasonable amount low glycemic carb foods, but lately it feels like not enough. I have had recent digestion problems from the chelation drug, and while there's no problem with appetite per se, there is a problem with eating enough calories, I become overly full. I can't actually eat three full meals a day, but in terms of appetite and eating can handle 2 large meals a day and mid day snack.

I do take a reasonable amount of fat and plenty of protein, but getting down carbs is tough. My gut is doing a lot better within the last few weeks now that the chelator id discontinued. I will try to stuff more sweet potatoes, plantains and beans. I do not do well with grains.

And BTW, I will be running a Genova Nutreval test to fill in the blanks with my nutritional and possible supplementation needs: Nutritional Test | NutrEval FMV®

 

[MDavidW76]

Blackhawk,
You’ve been on a damn tough road, good luck, cancer is the worst, lost my father and maternal grandfather to it. Wishing you all the best in your recovery.

 

[Blackhawk]

Blackhawk,
You’ve been on a damn tough road, good luck, cancer is the worst, lost my father and maternal grandfather to it. Wishing you all the best in your recovery.

I appreciate the good wishes, Thank you!