Nandrolone Experiences

[SilverSurfer]

Gman86, just like you I also intend to add nandrolone at some point, although its probably far away (Im young, T alone works excellent, and absolutely no joint issues etc).

I have the same question as you, whats the ideal ratio? Or alternatively, whats the minimum amount of nandrolone where the benefits are felt. I believe Dr Lichten uses around 40mg a week as a starting point along with TRT, thats super low in terms of dosage and yet he sees clinical improvements regarding inflammation in the digestive tract at those small dosages (from what I recall he said in his video, please correct me if wrong).

I also wonder what the deca dick potential is with that kind of tiny dose, and if these doses give the other touted benefits of nandrolone.

Virtually all of the Deca dick stories I read were from people cycling steroids and testosterone. A few were supposedly on TRT but using 2X and 3x normal TRT doses on “blast & cruise” schemes. They were chasing gym gainz not joint relief.

I’ve read all of the available studies and read all of the conflicting bro-science on ideal %s, and whatnot.

I personally wouldn’t touch Deca unless your workouts and/or daily life are being impacted due to impaired joints and soft tissue injuries. Much like I wouldn’t touch TRT unless your dick isn’t working correctly. But if your joints and soft tissue are causing you grief I see the risk as minimal, because if you do run into issues, you can cease the nandrolone and have the TRT slowly rebalance you’re system over several weeks.

 

[Gman86]

Gman86, just like you I also intend to add nandrolone at some point, although its probably far away (Im young, T alone works excellent, and absolutely no joint issues etc).

I have the same question as you, whats the ideal ratio? Or alternatively, whats the minimum amount of nandrolone where the benefits are felt. I believe Dr Lichten uses around 40mg a week as a starting point along with TRT, thats super low in terms of dosage and yet he sees clinical improvements regarding inflammation in the digestive tract at those small dosages (from what I recall he said in his video, please correct me if wrong).

I also wonder what the deca dick potential is with that kind of tiny dose, and if these doses give the other touted benefits of nandrolone.

Short answer, if you feel excellent on T alone, and have no joint issues, it’s a no brainer, don’t add any nandrolone in. If it isn’t broke, absolutely don’t try to fix it.

Do you mind if I ask what your current protocol is? Anytime someone feels amazing, I just have to ask, I can’t help it lol.

Yup, you’re correct. Dr. Lichten uses around 40-80mg/ week of deca. I think he uses around 40-60mg/ week for most guys. Along with 120-160mg per week of test. He likes a roughly 2:1 ratio of test:deca. Deca is a very strong AAS. It doesn’t take much to reap the benefits. 50-100 mg of deca is all you need to experience the joint and soft tissue benefits, and any anti-inflammatory benefits, that may help with digestive issues/ auto-immune conditions. 75mg/ week is probably the sweet spot.

 

[Gman86]

Virtually all of the Deca dick stories I read were from people cycling steroids and testosterone. A few were supposedly on TRT but using 2X and 3x normal TRT doses on “blast & cruise” schemes. They were chasing gym gainz not joint relief.

I’ve read all of the available studies and read all of the conflicting bro-science on ideal %s, and whatnot.

I personally wouldn’t touch Deca unless your workouts and/or daily life are being impacted due to impaired joints and soft tissue injuries. Much like I wouldn’t touch TRT unless your dick isn’t working correctly. But if your joints and soft tissue are causing you grief I see the risk as minimal, because if you do run into issues, you can cease the nandrolone and have the TRT slowly rebalance you’re system over several weeks.

Pretty much spot on. So “deca dick” is an extremely misunderstood concept. It is almost always due to using deca with too high of a dosage of test. This is due to multiple factors, but the main ones are that there can be issues when too much DHT and DHN are competing for the same receptors. The other main reason is due to deca sensitizing the E2 and prolactin receptors. Nandrolone by itself will result in low prolactin levels, and very low E2 levels. Testosterone aromatizes at a moderate to high level into E2, and will produce a low/ moderate amount of prolactin. When testosterone is run in too high of a dosage, along with deca, the E2 and prolactin from the test will have an amplified effect, and can result in “deca dick”. Deca will get the blame, but it is due to the combo, not necessarily from the deca. When running deca by itself, the reason guys have dick issues is because of low E2. When running deca by itself, all you need to do is use something along with it, in small dosages, to boost E2. Like HCG and/ or testosterone. But “deca dick” doesn’t exist for most men running high enough deca to where they have enough aromatization into healthy E2 levels, and/ or when deca is run as a base, in low dosages, and E2 is boosted up a bit via something like low dose HCG or low dose testosterone.

The other myth about “deca dick” is that because it’s a progestin derivative, that it will cause progesterone levels to shoot up very high, therefore causing “deca dick”. This is also not true. All the guys running low, or high, doses of nandrolone don’t appear to have any issues with elevated levels of progesterone in their bloodwork.

Another myth is that “deca dick” is caused by lack of DHT. However, it seems that DHN, is good enough to do the job of keeping libido and sexual function healthy. I’ve talked to many many guys that either run deca by itself, or run deca as a base, in low dosages, with low dose test, that don’t have any sexual issues. It actually seems the opposite. Most of them report having too high of a libido. The main guy I talk to runs 300mg of deca, 40mg of test, and 500iu’s of HCG, per week, and has to “relieve” himself on average 3x/ day. He says his libido is annoyingly high. He’s been on this protocol for roughly 2 years. He’s not on HRT btw. He runs it indefinitely for health/ longevity purposes, and doesn’t cycle, but clearly it’s a small steroid cycle. He said without the test and HCG, and just using 300mg per week of deca, his E2 was 5.7, and he said his sexual function definitely suffered with E2 that low.

Here’s a video that’s kind of interesting, about a case study on a guy using 300mg of deca per week, all by itself. The man in the case study has an E2 level of 6.0, but has no libido or sexual function issues. Not sure how this can be the case. I know deca sensitizes the E2 receptor, and deca can lower SHBG, resulting in higher free E2, but still very surprising that this guy would have good libido and sexual function with such a low E2 level. He’s apparently been on deca by itself for 20 years, with intermittent equipoise cycles inbetween. Here’s the video. It’s only like 14 mins long I think.

 

[DS3]

Exogenous T cannot be lowered by another compound. If your inject 100mg of test cyp, doesn’t matter how much deca you use, you’re still getting 100mg of test cyp

if you’re asking if adding an androgen, like deca, to your TRT will effect your T levels, the answer is basically no. It wont lower or raise total T. It can potentially increase free T though, by reducing the amount of T that is bound to SHBG.

Nandrolone is a separate molecule from testosterone. So no matter how much nandrolone you add, it will not raise testosterone levels, because it’s not testosterone, it’s nandrolone. So what Jason maybe was saying is, say you’re taking 150mg of test, and then lower your T dose to 100mg, and add in 50mg of deca, your total T level will drop, because your T dose dropped, and the deca will not add anything to your T level. But it doesn’t matter, because deca still stimulates the androgen receptors, and that’s all the androgen receptors care about. All they care about is being stimulated, to carry out their effects. So whether you stimulate them with nandrolone, or testosterone, they will carry out the same exact effects.

GMAN, you know this isn't true. Total T will drop if a man on TRT adds nandrolone to the mix, even if the T dosage doesn't change. Competitive binding at the androgen receptor is real, and the effects are lowered total T. I have shown evidence of this in my assays, and @Jason Sypolt has discussed how his Total T reduced while adding oxandrolone to his TRT.

Don't spread misinformation.

 

[DS3]

I’ve been learning a ton about nandrolone recently, and have learned some very interesting things, that I either didn’t know about it, or thought incorrectly about it. Deca dick, is one of those things, for example. And I’m not saying this is 100% facts, just saying this is what I’ve heard from guys that have studies nandrolone to high heavens, and guys using nandrolone only, or at least nandrolone as a base, themselves. According to them, nandrolone sensitizes the E2 and prolactin receptors. So any E2 and prolactin in the system, will have more of an impact. Nandrolone alone, produces very very low amounts of both E2 and prolactin. Again, according to them, nobody experiences deca dick, when nandrolone is used alone, at high enough doses. I say high enough doses, because when ran alone, you need to use a dose that will produce enough E2. When used at lower doses, if sexual function is an issue, it can usually be easily remedied with adding a small dose of an aromatizing compound, like HCG and/ or testosterone. They say that 99% of “deca dick” cases, are a result of too much testosterone on the system, along with the deca. Not the deca itself. This is due to nandrolone sensitizing the E2 and prolactin receptors, and making the E2 and prolactin from the testosterone more potent, and causing sexual function is issues. According to them, it’s also not good to have too much DHT in the system, at the same time as a bunch of DHN. Apparently it causes issues at the receptor level when levels of both are too high at the same time. I’m not 100% clear on the whole mixing DHN and DHT thing, but I think that it’s something along those lines.

Like I said, I’m no expert on nandrolone or anything, at this point, but it seems that you may be incorrect about deca dick being caused by not using enough exogenous T, when using deca. I’ve talked to quite a few guys on nandrolone alone, that have no issues, and a few of the guys I talked to are part of a fb group, where literally hundreds and hundreds of men are either using nandrolone alone, with great success, or using nandrolone with a small dose of testosterone, for the E2 boost, again with great success. But invariably, when you talk to guys that get “deca dick”, they almost always report taking higher doses of test than nandrolone. In my experience, whenever I ask someone that reports having “deca dick” they report using higher doses of test than deca, 100% of the time. I’ve only asked maybe 25-30 guys tho, in either the Youtube comments of a video, fb groups, and or forums. Here’s a few videos that kind of explain what I’m talking about.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1541736599308080

Very interesting!

 

[DS3]

I've seen the videos. Honestly I would avoid the YouTube stuff, MD or not. They simply don't know, no one does - and putting their best educated guesses on YT for the masses to take as the closest thing to fact because most people prefer some answer to none is just irresponsible. You can say literally anything on YT for clicks and attention. I personally wouldn't put my health to that kind of test.

That said, these are a couple of papers from the people doing real research. The Baylor fellows are the tip of the spear in understanding androgens in health - churning out research paper after paper like it's their life's purpose.

Beyond testosterone cypionate: evidence behind the use of nandrolone in male health and wellness

Nandrolone decanoate relieves joint pain in hypogonadal men: a novel prospective pilot ...

@Jason Sypolt I am under the care of BCM and they definitely advocate for nandrolone in conjunction with testosterone. Good place to be taken care of.

 

[DS3]

You are right. I was alluding to the aromatization and 5-ar processes. Replacing T with substances that are similar to the results of those processes such as DHT or DHN isn't a replacement. We do not fully understand those processes and mimicking the results is not mimicking everything that happens during the processes.

There is uncertainty and inconclusive information in the papers, and that is the reason why I referenced them. Given what is known, it is unwise to use androgens without testosterone.

We can take T for decades, a lifetime. These proponents of N-only HRT are talking about higher doses like 300mg which is a lot. And I see some shockingly low E2 examples, that has long-term health consequences This isn't new, the bros do this stuff all the time and then they come here needing help. There are going to be side effects and safety issues, particularly long-term. Cycles aren't HRT. Are they going to drop the dose and add in some T when things go sideways? Then that is also not Nandrolone-only and proves that it doesn't work as replacement for TRT.

My point is that this experiment is attempted over and over by guys who don't even know what an androgen receptors is in gyms every day and it's not effective, and sometimes unsafe. Who wants to sign up to that for life? That's what this is - lifelong reolacement. Each is free to draw their own conclusions and make choices, but that rules it out for me. I am definitely a fan of Nandrolone, but not it's use exclusively.

Curious about your opinion on ratios of T:N when used in TRT settings. Bro science is all over the board with 1:1, 2:1, 3:1, 1:2, etc. Could there be truth to deca dick being a result of overly sensitized E2 receptors as @Gman86 mentioned earlier while using too high of T with nandrolone?

 

[bixt]

Short answer, if you feel excellent on T alone, and have no joint issues, it’s a no brainer, don’t add any nandrolone in. If it isn’t broke, absolutely don’t try to fix it.

Only asking so if these issues crop up in decades to come ill have a ready solution!

Do you mind if I ask what your current protocol is? Anytime someone feels amazing, I just have to ask, I can’t help it lol.

200-250mg a week test cyp shallow IM quads split twice weekly.

I recently added clomid 25mg the day before the injection, it has really plumped and firmed up my balls to their original size or thereabouts. No other effects good or bad whatsoever with this dose so far, will discontinue if any negatives arise. This is still an experiment in progress. There is currently no science to back this up (LH&FSH approach zero on others blood tests). But then theres plenty of anecdotes if you search re ball size even while on exogenous test. My hypothesis is a few LH pulses in the night which are undetectable in the day. This is a whole topic on its own.

 

[Gman86]

GMAN, you know this isn't true. Total T will drop if a man on TRT adds nandrolone to the mix, even if the T dosage doesn't change. Competitive binding at the androgen receptor is real, and the effects are lowered total T. I have shown evidence of this in my assays, and @Jason Sypolt has discussed how his Total T reduced while adding oxandrolone to his TRT.

Don't spread misinformation.

Oh yes! I do remember your experience I think. Your total dropped by roughly half, correct? But you didn’t check free T, correct? I’ve seen on two occasions my total T take a little dive, but maintain almost identical free T levels. All while on T and HCG, no deca. I wonder if your free T would of been close to where it was before your total T dropped. I’ve had a few discussions about this idea with Cataceous. The body does what it can to maintain free T levels apparently. Even when SHBG and total T fluctuate, free T can remain somewhat stable.

 

[Gman86]

Only asking so if these issues crop up in decades to come ill have a ready solution!



200-250mg a week test cyp shallow IM quads split twice weekly.

I recently added clomid 25mg the day before the injection, it has really plumped and firmed up my balls to their original size or thereabouts. No other effects good or bad whatsoever with this dose so far, will discontinue if any negatives arise. This is still an experiment in progress. There is currently no science to back this up (LH&FSH approach zero on others blood tests). But then theres plenty of anecdotes if you search re ball size even while on exogenous test. My hypothesis is a few LH pulses in the night which are undetectable in the day. This is a whole topic on its own.

Is a doctor prescribing you the 200-250mg per week? And why the range? Are you not consistently doing the same dose every week?

And I think it’s a great idea to learn about deca now, and be prepared when the time comes that you may need it. Knowledge is power.

 

[Gman86]

@DS3 how are you feeling on your current protocol with deca?

is this your current protocol?

Protocol= 50 mg EOD Test Cyp/Prop blend, .125 mg Adex 1x per week, 100 mg Nandrolone, 150 units HCG 2x per week?

 

[DS3]

Oh yes! I do remember your experience I think. Your total dropped by roughly half, correct? But you didn’t check free T, correct? I’ve seen on two occasions my total T take a little dive, but maintain almost identical free T levels. All while on T and HCG, no deca. I wonder if your free T would of been close to where it was before your total T dropped. I’ve had a few discussions about this idea with Cataceous. The body does what it can to maintain free T levels apparently. Even when SHBG and total T fluctuate, free T can remain somewhat stable.

The maintenance of free T is something I cannot dispute, and by-and-large agree with the evidence that @Cataceous presented regarding its maintenance. Total T and its reduction due to competitive binding with other androgens is a quantifiable thing, even though free T may be largely unaffected.

I wish I had my SHBG and free T measured during that time period. But I would be willing to bet that free T was largely unaffected while my total T did show a substantial reduction.

 

[DS3]

@DS3 how are you feeling on your current protocol with deca?

is this your current protocol?

Protocol= 50 mg EOD Test Cyp/Prop blend, .125 mg Adex 1x per week, 100 mg Nandrolone, 150 units HCG 2x per week?

That was early 2019's protocol.

Since August 2019 I have been running the following:

T: 75 mg EOD propionate (e2 sides and energy fluctuations are minimal on prop, while I experience major e2 sides, mood and energy fluctuations on cyp).

Adex: 0.125 mg 1x per week

Nandrolone: 50 mg per week

HCG: 500 units EOD (recently increased dosage from 250 units EOD as I am getting ramped up to get off of all anabolics in 6 months to go on a fertility protocol before my wife and I try to get pregnant).

Overall I feel great. Energy is good, mood is generally good, E2 is well controlled, libido is good. I still have short-term memory issues resulting from nandrolone use (as documented potential side effect). But, for the most part I feel good.

 

[bixt]

Is a doctor prescribing you the 200-250mg per week? And why the range? Are you not consistently doing the same dose every week?

Self prescribed, pharma test. I vary the dose every couple weeks up and down, this seems to have a large effect on libido for some as yet unknown reason. No my idea, more than a handful of guys making posts regarding this idea on another T forum.

 

[Gman86]

Self prescribed, pharma test. I vary the dose every couple weeks up and down, this seems to have a large effect on libido for some as yet unknown reason. No my idea, more than a handful of guys making posts regarding this idea on another T forum.

Very interesting. Seems like there’s definitely something to it. How much do you vary the dose? And do you vary it by the same exact amount up and down every couple weeks?

 

[slicktop]

That was early 2019's protocol.

Since August 2019 I have been running the following:

T: 75 mg EOD propionate (e2 sides and energy fluctuations are minimal on prop, while I experience major e2 sides, mood and energy fluctuations on cyp).

Adex: 0.125 mg 1x per week

Nandrolone: 50 mg per week

HCG: 500 units EOD (recently increased dosage from 250 units EOD as I am getting ramped up to get off of all anabolics in 6 months to go on a fertility protocol before my wife and I try to get pregnant).

Overall I feel great. Energy is good, mood is generally good, E2 is well controlled, libido is good. I still have short-term memory issues resulting from nandrolone use (as documented potential side effect). But, for the most part I feel good.

Just curious as to why you're planning to get off all anabolics instead of just try for the first month and see what happens? Or possibly ramp up the HCG?

 

[bixt]

Very interesting. Seems like there’s definitely something to it. How much do you vary the dose? And do you vary it by the same exact amount up and down every couple weeks?

I don't have an exact amount or method, but say roughly 200mg\week for 2 weeks done as E3D, then perhaps 250mg\week for 2 weeks done as E4D. Repeat.

So many people fiddle with protocols, up or down, and feel better for a while and then complain new protocol not working. Varying the dose seems to keep things working and the above may simply be formalizing this fiddling.

Around the time I discovered this, not long ago, I came across posts describing this method, for libido. Those posts described doing 185mg\week for 2 weeks and then 200mg\week for 2 weeks and people swear by it.

How does it work? There may be no science to back this up. My hypothesis is slight receptor desensitization on the dialed in dose, subsequent resensitisation on lower dose, and then taking advantage of the now resensitised receptors at the high dose.

 

[DS3]

Just curious as to why you're planning to get off all anabolics instead of just try for the first month and see what happens? Or possibly ramp up the HCG?

I plan to have a semen analysis conducted in a couple of months after the recent HCG ramp up to 500 IU EOD. My fear, though, is that although a semen analysis may show good quality and quantity, the exogenous anabolics may still negatively impact the overall quality of the sperm (epigenetics). If we end up having a child that has something wrong with it, I want the peace of mind knowing that it wasn't something I was taking that caused it.

 

[Rock H. Johnson]

@DS3 No judgement, but for clarity you are running,
T: 75 mg EOD propionate Nandrolone: 50 mg per week
Thats 5.25:1 - T:N
Asking because of this:
Pretty much spot on. So “deca dick” is an extremely misunderstood concept. It is almost always due to using deca with too high of a dosage of test. This is due to multiple factors, but the main ones are that there can be issues when too much DHT and DHN are competing for the same receptors. The other main reason is due to deca sensitizing the E2 and prolactin receptors. Nandrolone by itself will result in low prolactin levels, and very low E2 levels. Testosterone aromatizes at a moderate to high level into E2, and will produce a low/ moderate amount of prolactin. When testosterone is run in too high of a dosage, along with deca, the E2 and prolactin from the test will have an amplified effect, and can result in “deca dick”. Deca will get the blame, but it is due to the combo, not necessarily from the deca. When running deca by itself, the reason guys have dick issues is because of low E2. When running deca by itself, all you need to do is use something along with it, in small dosages, to boost E2. Like HCG and/ or testosterone. But “deca dick” doesn’t exist for most men running high enough deca to where they have enough aromatization into healthy E2 levels, and/ or when deca is run as a base, in low dosages, and E2 is boosted up a bit via something like low dose HCG or low dose testosterone.

And top it of with a weekly dose of: Adex: 0.125 mg 1x per week

 

[DS3]

@DS3 No judgement, but for clarity you are running,
T: 75 mg EOD propionate Nandrolone: 50 mg per week
Thats 5.25:1 - T:N
Asking because of this:
Pretty much spot on. So “deca dick” is an extremely misunderstood concept. It is almost always due to using deca with too high of a dosage of test. This is due to multiple factors, but the main ones are that there can be issues when too much DHT and DHN are competing for the same receptors. The other main reason is due to deca sensitizing the E2 and prolactin receptors. Nandrolone by itself will result in low prolactin levels, and very low E2 levels. Testosterone aromatizes at a moderate to high level into E2, and will produce a low/ moderate amount of prolactin. When testosterone is run in too high of a dosage, along with deca, the E2 and prolactin from the test will have an amplified effect, and can result in “deca dick”. Deca will get the blame, but it is due to the combo, not necessarily from the deca. When running deca by itself, the reason guys have dick issues is because of low E2. When running deca by itself, all you need to do is use something along with it, in small dosages, to boost E2. Like HCG and/ or testosterone. But “deca dick” doesn’t exist for most men running high enough deca to where they have enough aromatization into healthy E2 levels, and/ or when deca is run as a base, in low dosages, and E2 is boosted up a bit via something like low dose HCG or low dose testosterone.

And top it of with a weekly dose of: Adex: 0.125 mg 1x per week

That is correct, I am running those amounts. You are quoting @Gman86 regarding nandrolone and deca dick. While these hypotheses are interesting and on the surface seem logical, there is no hard evidence as to what actually causes deca dick. No studies, no doctors with anecdotal evidence, nothing. I agree with @Gman86's logic here, but again, what intuition and logic dictate as truth is not always true after scientific inquiry (which as of yet, there is no conclusive science on this).

I run my testosterone that high because I like the androgenic feeling of higher testosterone. I have lowered testosterone before and raised nandrolone, only to fall ill to its side effects that occur in me including head fog, diminished libido, short-term memory deficits, lethargy, depression, antisocial behavior. Upon cessation of the nandrolone, these side effects withdrew.

Don't fall victim to thinking there is a magical T:N ratio, optimal dosage, or nandrolone monotherapy that is going to work well for everyone or even as vast majority of guys. Everyone responds differently based on genetic factors, age, environmental factors, and lifestyle factors (genetic factors such as hepatic enzyme function being the most impactful here). I honestly don't like nandrolone and feel like crap if I take it for more than 6 weeks at a time. Some guys love it as monotherapy. Some guys feel good taking 300 test, 200 nandrolone, some hcg, and adex. Everyone is different.