Nandrolone Experiences

[Gman86]

What's funny is when I asked Dr. Lipshultz about my concern in the dramatic drop in TT, he gave a generic response saying that, "As long as my patients are reaching their quality of life goals, then I am not too concerned with it."

Love Dr. Lipshultz, but it is aggravating that even the experts don't have the answers.

Haha ya I’d be a little aggravated too, but just the fact that he took the time on his own after medical school to learn about testosterone, is pretty awesome. He’ll spend the rest of his career learning about it, and still not fully understand the absolute ideal way to administer TRT to patients. It’s a constant learning process for all these HRT doctors. I don’t blame him for not wanting to start the learning process over from scratch with another AAS, and it’s role in HRT, and it’s effects on labs. Just the fact that he’s willing to prescribe it is pretty awesome, and progressive. But you would think that with his base of knowledge, and whatever understanding of nandrolone that he has, that he could possibly at least come up with a hypothesis on why this occurred with ur total T. But at the same time, I don’t blame him for taking the lazy way out and saying what he did lol. I’m sure he’s a busy man, and doesn’t have the time we do to look up studies, frequent the forums and fb groups, and watch YouTube vids.

Lmk if u start that thread tho, I’ll go to it and set my settings to receive notifications

 

[DS3]

Haha ya I’d be a little aggravated too, but just the fact that he took the time on his own after medical school to learn about testosterone, is pretty awesome. He’ll spend the rest of his career learning about it, and still not fully understand the absolute ideal way to administer TRT to patients. It’s a constant learning process for all these HRT doctors. I don’t blame him for not wanting to start the learning process over from scratch with another AAS, and it’s role in HRT, and it’s effects on labs. Just the fact that he’s willing to prescribe it is pretty awesome, and progressive. But you would think that with his base of knowledge, and whatever understanding of nandrolone that he has, that he could possibly at least come up with a hypothesis on why this occurred with ur total T. But at the same time, I don’t blame him for taking the lazy way out and saying what he did lol. I’m sure he’s a busy man, and doesn’t have the time we do to look up studies, frequent the forums and fb groups, and watch YouTube vids.

Lmk if u start that thread tho, I’ll go to it and set my settings to receive notifications

Certainly an innovator. Quite a few novel studies published by him and his team at BCM. Busy can't describe how many guys he sees in a day. Most people I know from Texas and especially the Houston area that are on TRT go to him.

 

[SilverSurfer]

While taking nandrolone my total testosterone was higher on all of my labs. Significantly higher.

 

[DS3]

While taking nandrolone my total testosterone was higher on all of my labs. Significantly higher.

Yup. You are using the methodology that doesn’t differentiate between testosterone and nandrolone; it just adds the two together.

 

[Vince]

I would have too and it is a shame that they were not measured. Maybe we should start another thread asking those who has used nandrolone to post their assays before and after.

Yes I also been thinking about that, before and after labs when starting Nandrolone. I think I'll start a new thread and hopefully we'll get some answers.

 

[DS3]

Yes I also been thinking about that, before and after labs when starting Nandrolone. I think I'll start a new thread and hopefully we'll get some answers.

I’ll start it tonight if you haven’t.

 

[madman]

All great questions. I will answer each separately.

1. "But how do we know ur not an N of 1? How do we know that what happened with ur total T is what happens with everyone’s total T when they add in nandrolone?"

I used a pretest-posttest research method to determine the effects of nandrolone on blood assays, so tightly controlled variables changed between the pretest protocol and intervention protocol.

Pretest Protocol: 0.3 cc test Cyp/Prop EOD (~200 mg per week). 0.25 mg anastrozole 1x per week, no HCG.

Pretest Assays:
TT- 1304 ng/dL
SHBG: 25.5 nmol/:
Free T (Calc): 378.4 pg/mL
E2: 28.3 pg/mL (0.25 mg Adex taken the day before this test)(without an AI my E2 would top at ~60 pg/mL).
Prolactin: 10.4 ng/mL

Intervention Protocol: 0.3 cc Test Cyp/Prop EOD (~200 mg per week), 100 mg nandrolone per week from Empower (weekly dosage split into EOD injections), and the addition of ~250 units HCG 2x per week. No AI. The HCG was the only 'wild card' put in the intervention protocol that wasn't in the Pretest Protocol (this should only add to my TT, not take away).

Posttest Assays:
TT: 531 ng/dL
Prolactin: 9 ng/mL
E2: 40 pg/dL (remember, no AI use was in the intervention protocol)
SHBG: Doctor didn't order
Free T: Doctor didn't order

These test results are obviously not confidently generalizable without further evidence from other nandrolone users in clinical settings given that these results are based on one person. However, the testing, controlling of variables (such as timing of injections, the timing of testing, type of assays utilized, and hormones used) were very well controlled.

2. "most of the labs that I’ve seen, guys total T usually goes way above the top end of the range, due to the total testosterone test being the standard test, not sensitive, and just adding the nandrolone and testosterone in their system together"

The methodology of these assays were clearly different than mine that were conducted through Clinical Pathology Laboratories in Austin, TX (ordered by Dr. Lipshultz at the Baylor College of Medicine). For Total Testosterone, they use the Roche COBAS electrochemiluminescent immunoassay (ECLIA) methodology. The same methodology and lab was used in both the pretest and posttest.

3. "Why would competitive binding at the androgen receptor matter with total T? Isn’t total T just the amount of testosterone in your blood?"

I can't confidently answer this question. Blood assays in those in clinical treatment appear to support a reduction in TT with the addition of other anabolics (e.g. nandrolone, oxandrolone). Why this event happens, I cannot confidently say, nor can anyone else confidently give an answer to this. (Other than speculation of assay methodology).

4. "Nandrolone converts very very little into E2 and prolactin. So theoretically, if testosterone dose stayed the same, and low dose nandrolone was added, I would imagine you would see a slight increase in both E2 and prolactin. But if test dose was decreased, and nandrolone was added in at a low dose, I would imagine that u would see a net decrease in E2 and prolactin."

Indeed. However, from a non-theoretical standpoint, real-world clinical use and the aforementioned pretest-posttest research design used to determine the effect on blood assays, this is not what happens.

Competitive-binding at the androgen receptor would dictate that the hormone with the stronger binding affinity for the AR would express its effects to a greater degree than the hormone with lower binding affinity; in this case, nandrolone expression would be greater than testosterone expression given their relative binding affinities. So with nandrolone's progestonic and estrogenic effects being lower than that of testosterone, even from a theoretical standpoint, it would make sense that adding nandrolone to Testosterone without decreasing the T dosage would result in lower E2 and prolactin.

2. "most of the labs that I’ve seen, guys total T usually goes way above the top end of the range, due to the total testosterone test being the standard test, not sensitive, and just adding the nandrolone and testosterone in their system together"

The methodology of these assays were clearly different than mine that were conducted through Clinical Pathology Laboratories in Austin, TX (ordered by Dr. Lipshultz at the Baylor College of Medicine). For Total Testosterone, they use the Roche COBAS electrochemiluminescent immunoassay (ECLIA) methodology. The same methodology and lab was used in both the pretest and posttest.





I would think twice when using such assay.


Intended use
Immunoassay for the in vitro quantitative determination of testosterone in human serum and plasma. The electrochemiluminescence immunoassay “ECLIA” is intended for use on Elecsys and cobas e immunoassay analyzers.


Limitations - interference
Two special drugs were additionally tested. A strong interaction with Nandrolone (INN international nonproprietary name, WHO) was found. Do not use samples from patients under Nandrolone treatment.

 

[DS3]

2. "most of the labs that I’ve seen, guys total T usually goes way above the top end of the range, due to the total testosterone test being the standard test, not sensitive, and just adding the nandrolone and testosterone in their system together"

The methodology of these assays were clearly different than mine that were conducted through Clinical Pathology Laboratories in Austin, TX (ordered by Dr. Lipshultz at the Baylor College of Medicine). For Total Testosterone, they use the Roche COBAS electrochemiluminescent immunoassay (ECLIA) methodology. The same methodology and lab was used in both the pretest and posttest.





I would think twice when using such assay.


Intended use
Immunoassay for the in vitro quantitative determination of testosterone in human serum and plasma. The electrochemiluminescence immunoassay “ECLIA” is intended for use on Elecsys and cobas e immunoassay analyzers.


Limitations - interference
Two special drugs were additionally tested. A strong interaction with Nandrolone (INN international nonproprietary name, WHO) was found. Do not use samples from patients under Nandrolone treatment.
View attachment 9364

Very good to know. Thank you for sharing!

 

[DS3]

Hi there.

New poster to this forum but I've been stalking for a while. I'm currently on HCG 500iu twice weekly, nothing else.

About to add 100 mg/wk of Nandrolone Decanoate because of extremely stiff joints no matter what the diet or TRT/HRT, and I've tried them all... Besides, I don't want more androgenic sides which I've had in the past using low doses of Testosterone. Yet I've done Nandrolone Decanoate solo in the past as an experiment, up to 900 mg/wk - didn't get any androgenic sides. However 900 mg/wk didn't quite feel good mentally obviously and kidneys were shot. E2 was 20 and prolactin 5.

Curious to report on HCG 500 + Deca 50mg twice weekly.

Let us know how it goes!

 

[benaoao]

will do!

in the meantime I'd like to add this excellent review and bloodwork with surprisingly thorough analysis by Derek here

NPP 80-100 mg/wk
transdermal estradiol gel 1.5 mg/day

 

[Gman86]

Hi there.

New poster to this forum but I've been stalking for a while. I'm currently on HCG 500iu twice weekly, nothing else.

About to add 100 mg/wk of Nandrolone Decanoate because of extremely stiff joints no matter what the diet or TRT/HRT, and I've tried them all... Besides, I don't want more androgenic sides which I've had in the past using low doses of Testosterone. Yet I've done Nandrolone Decanoate solo in the past as an experiment, up to 900 mg/wk - didn't get any androgenic sides. However 900 mg/wk didn't quite feel good mentally obviously and kidneys were shot. E2 was 20 and prolactin 5.

Curious to report on HCG 500 + Deca 50mg twice weekly.

Wow, so on 900mg of deca per week E2 was only 20, and prolactin 5? This lines up with what I’ve seen in men’s bloodwork using deca. I’ve seen two guy’s both using 300mg of deca, and their E2 was 5, and the other 6. so overall, it definitely seems like deca aromatizes way less the the 20% that’s often repeated. I’ve also seen that deca converts very little into prolactin. Hopefully it puts the myth to bed about deca raising prolactin, and increased prolactin being the cause of “deca dick” Increased prolactin may very well be the cause, but it’s not from the deca, it’s from other compounds used along with deca, at least in regards to prolactin. I can totally see someone’s dick not working on deca only using low doses, due to the lack of E2 conversion.

Looking forward to seeing how you do with the new protocol. Thanks for posting.

 

[JA Battle]

Wow, so on 900mg of deca per week E2 was only 20, and prolactin 5? This lines up with what I’ve seen in men’s bloodwork using deca. I’ve seen two guy’s both using 300mg of deca, and their E2 was 5, and the other 6. so overall, it definitely seems like deca aromatizes way less the the 20% that’s often repeated. I’ve also seen that deca converts very little into prolactin. Hopefully it puts the myth to bed about deca raising prolactin, and increased prolactin being the cause of “deca dick” Increased prolactin may very well be the cause, but it’s not from the deca, it’s from other compounds used along with deca, at least in regards to prolactin. I can totally see someone’s dick not working on deca only using low doses, due to the lack of E2 conversion.

Looking forward to seeing how you do with the new protocol. Thanks for posting.

nandrolone aromatizes at most 20% what t does. this is not that great for the androgen receptor to e receptor activation in a ratio sense.
making sure physiological amounts of e2 is achieved is a necessary concern for some. as the t dosage gets higher we are more inclined now to let e2 climb with it and im seeing guys can feel still feel great. e2 will not keep climbing much with adding nandrolone so it can play with that ratio. for some may find that ruins lipid profiles and has ill effect. something to pay attention to.

this is a theory as to the existence of deca dick. Ive seen a guy actually use deca only in a lower dose for trt and supplemented with estradiol cream and still maintained libido. he took bloods and everything. his lipids and libido stayed in range with the e2 supplementation but suspected with raising e2 from about 16 into mid 20s he would have had more favorable lipids and libido.

 

[Gman86]

nandrolone aromatizes at most 20% what t does. this is not that great for the androgen receptor to e receptor activation in a ratio sense.
making sure physiological amounts of e2 is achieved is a necessary concern for some. as the t dosage gets higher we are more inclined now to let e2 climb with it and im seeing guys can feel still feel great. e2 will not keep climbing much with adding nandrolone so it can play with that ratio. for some may find that ruins lipid profiles and has ill effect. something to pay attention to.

this is a theory as to the existence of deca dick. Ive seen a guy actually use deca only in a lower dose for trt and supplemented with estradiol cream and still maintained libido. he took bloods and everything. his lipids and libido stayed in range with the e2 supplementation but suspected with raising e2 from about 16 into mid 20s he would have had more favorable lipids and libido.

Ya E2 is great for improving lipids. I’m currently using nandrolone as my base, and using low dose test and HCG to boost E2 up. I agree, nandrolone can be a very useful tool to manage E2. Nandrolone gives all the androgen receptor activation, without the high conversion into E2 and prolactin. I can see it being a very useful tool for anyone that aromatizes at a very high rate, or has high prolactin conversion while using test. It’s just another tool in the toolbox. A very good tool for guys wanting to avoid using an ai, imo.

 

[benaoao]

My only issue is that I'm not in a state where I can freely get Total and Free Test assayed proper, plus I'm about to move across the border to Ontario anyway.

Should I disregard evaluating Testosterone altogether? Realistically all I'd get via ROCHE testing would be serum total Nandrolone levels (since regular bloodwork doesn't differentiate test vs nand).

I'm thinking of DHT, E2, Prolactin and all the typical stuff CBC CMP Lipids TSH etc.

 

[Vince]

My only issue is that I'm not in a state where I can freely get Total and Free Test assayed proper, plus I'm about to move across the border to Ontario anyway.

Should I disregard evaluating Testosterone altogether? Realistically all I'd get via ROCHE testing would be serum total Nandrolone levels (since regular bloodwork doesn't differentiate test vs nand).

I'm thinking of DHT, E2, Prolactin and all the typical stuff CBC CMP Lipids TSH etc.

My two cents is, if you can't get the sensitive estrogen test. You just work with what's available.

 

[JA Battle]

My only issue is that I'm not in a state where I can freely get Total and Free Test assayed proper, plus I'm about to move across the border to Ontario anyway.

Should I disregard evaluating Testosterone altogether? Realistically all I'd get via ROCHE testing would be serum total Nandrolone levels (since regular bloodwork doesn't differentiate test vs nand).

I'm thinking of DHT, E2, Prolactin and all the typical stuff CBC CMP Lipids TSH etc.

nandrolone is filling in at the androgen receptor for test, and the ratio of androgen receptor activity vs the activity at the estrogen receptor is something to pay attention to.

if its not expensive, normal testosterone test may be something you get out of curiosity and can track over time while you are on nandrolone. it may be useful for some to adjust dosage if you are to ever experiment with dosage. the number you get on that test is indicative of the level of hormone that has affinity for the androgen receptor.

if a physiological amount of substance (nandrolone here) activating the androgen receptor is suspected to be anywhere ideal, making sure E2 is dialed in and high enough while on nandrolone can be a primary focus. it is worth doing even without getting testosterone tested. Likely you will have little DHT as nandrolone reduces to dihydronandrolone. Your estrogen may be close to what it needs to be on 500iu 2x of hcg but maybe still low. nandrolone also is not likely to elevate prolactin buy still may be worth testing.

nandrolone is 3 times more potent at androgen receptor stimulation so a relatively modest dose would maintain physique and expression of the androgen receptors and subsequent physiological functions.

 

[DS3]

nandrolone is filling in at the androgen receptor for test, and the ratio of androgen receptor activity vs the activity at the estrogen receptor is something to pay attention to.

if its not expensive, normal testosterone test may be something you get out of curiosity and can track over time while you are on nandrolone. it may be useful for some to adjust dosage if you are to ever experiment with dosage. the number you get on that test is indicative of the level of hormone that has affinity for the androgen receptor.

if a physiological amount of substance (nandrolone here) activating the androgen receptor is suspected to be anywhere ideal, making sure E2 is dialed in and high enough while on nandrolone can be a primary focus. it is worth doing even without getting testosterone tested. Likely you will have little DHT as nandrolone reduces to dihydronandrolone. Your estrogen may be close to what it needs to be on 500iu 2x of hcg but maybe still low. nandrolone also is not likely to elevate prolactin buy still may be worth testing.

nandrolone is 3 times more potent at androgen receptor stimulation so a relatively modest dose would maintain physique and expression of the androgen receptors and subsequent physiological functions.

@JA Battle Happy Sunday. Making a few corrections to your post so that we don't mislead or misinform individuals on this forum.

(1) You need to use the LC/MS assay to get an accurate reading on Testosterone levels while taking nandrolone. Other assays are inaccurate. @Nelson Vergel Nandrolone: Effect on Blood Assays

(2) "the number you get on that test is indicative of the level of hormone that has affinity for the androgen receptor." Total testosterone would not be affected by nandrolone, and the results of such an assay would not determine affinity for the androgen receptor. Additionally, Free Testosterone may see a slight increase due to a reduction in SHBG. Nandrolone: Effect on Blood Assays

(3) "a relatively modest dose would maintain physique". DHN is significantly less masculinizing than DHT, which is exhibited in its characteristics on physiques. DHT has a hardening/masculinizing effect, despite its low activity in muscle tissue due to its rapid inactivation via the 3a-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme. DHN, despite its significant binding affinity for muscle tissue, does not create the same 'hardened effect' that DHT produces. Not only is this theoretically relevant as the effects of DHN are known to be significantly less androgenic than that of testosterone, but the effects are also self-evident in those who use nandrolone as an adjunct to TRT, as a standalone, or as a physique/bodybuilding competitor. Nandrolone is widely known to create a 'smoothed over' physique.

My experience with nandrolone has been the same as the aforementioned statement in #3. Nandrolone just isn't masculinizing as testosterone is, and subsequently DHT.

 

[benaoao]

Testing DHT is probably out of curiosity since I’m using HCG. Everyone knows HCG induces intracellular aromatase but it also induces 5ar, so I’m curious. I wouldn’t want to defeat the anti androgenic purpose of this Nandrolone based HRT, pinning too much HCG.
I’ve run HCG solo for a while doing 500iu M+F. Test was 630 E2 was 35. So in a way, I’d want to compare E2 numbers to this baseline. I could always get ROCHE Eclia testing to know what my nandrolone levels are indeed (which would show up as testosterone).

DHT’s hardening effect comes from Test being reduced at the skin level which thins the skin / less subQ fat. It’s not something that’s happening in the muscle. I’m very lean already and have observed that being sensitive to DHT, my skin at the face and scalp becomes excessively thin and I’m not interested in further straw like hair, beard and wrinkles

 

[bochinit]

Many of my clients report libido loss with Nandrolone, low doses or high doses. I never touched it for this reason, but have some curiosity about. I know that Nandrolone can act in the vasoconstriction too, as mentioned here, besides the neuro-desregulation and the DHN issues. All of this can contribute to erectlyle disfunction. Some of users here even utilize anti-prolac drugs to combat the issues (but this kind of drugs are dangerous too). So, as I seen all of this Deca-Only users are playing russian roulete and thats not a long term warranty that it will work forever.

About DHT, damn.. I'm realy wanting to add Proviron or Masteron to my TRT..

 

[DS3]

Testing DHT is probably out of curiosity since I’m using HCG. Everyone knows HCG induces intracellular aromatase but it also induces 5ar, so I’m curious. I wouldn’t want to defeat the anti androgenic purpose of this Nandrolone based HRT, pinning too much HCG.
I’ve run HCG solo for a while doing 500iu M+F. Test was 630 E2 was 35. So in a way, I’d want to compare E2 numbers to this baseline. I could always get ROCHE Eclia testing to know what my nandrolone levels are indeed (which would show up as testosterone).

DHT’s hardening effect comes from Test being reduced at the skin level which thins the skin / less subQ fat. It’s not something that’s happening in the muscle. I’m very lean already and have observed that being sensitive to DHT, my skin at the face and scalp becomes excessively thin and I’m not interested in further straw like hair, beard and wrinkles

"DHT’s hardening effect comes from Test being reduced at the skin level which thins the skin / less subQ fat." This assertion is probably partially correct. The study below discusses similar results in men who were administered transdermal DHT for 90 days and the results demonstrate a reduction in skinfold thickness and fat mass. DHT's inactivation within muscle tissue via the 3a-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme was already established. I wasn't proposing an explanation for the masculizing/hardening effects of DHT that pertained to its activity or inactivity in muscle tissue.

Study 1: Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled, Randomized Clinical Trial of Transdermal Dihydrotestosterone Gel on Muscular Strength, Mobility, and Quality of Life in Older Men with Partial Androgen Deficiency
Study 2: Dihydrotestosterone stimulates amino acid uptake and the expression of LAT2 in mouse skeletal muscle fibres through an ERK1/2-dependent mechanism

However, in the second study, the results indicate that DHT may actually play an essential role in protein synthesis and the subsequent transport of essential amino acids into fast-twitch muscle fibers. Interesting results. Perhaps DHT doesn't play an inconsequential role in muscle fiber.

Study 3: Evaluation of androgen antagonism of estrogen effect by dihydrotestosterone. - PubMed - NCBI

DHT also has antagonistic effects within various organs. The posted study discusses the antagonistic effect of DHT in the uterus, which serves as a simple example of estrogen antagonism. I have yet to be able to find evidence as to whether DHT has an anti-estrogenic role in muscle tissue, although I intuitively believe this would be true (with as little of value as belief without proof provides).