nandrolone- atrophy in quads? Also, legalities and terminology

[Vin]

I’ve been on 60mg/wk Deca for 6mos and although it helped my joint pain around week 4-8, the effects have since diminished and my blood pressure is now I the high zone. My consult wit Dr. Calkins from Defy is coming up and I’m going to request to drop the Deca and replace with Oxandrolone. I also want to add BPC 157 to help with a triceps ligament issue.
Thoughts?

Curious if you had your consult yet and if you inquired about Oxandrolone as a potential add in as for the issues that you mentioned as well as Bpc-157

 

[DS3]

Fasting glucose was slightly higher than usual, at 91, but went mostly carnivore around the same time I switched to a deca base, so wasn’t too surprised. Anytime u get excess protein, fasting glucose tends to go up due to gluconeogenesis. It’s a common theme with carnivores to see fasting glucose be slightly elevated.

Clinical research I’m reviewing doesn’t suggest that this is actually a true statement.

“Protein requires insulin for metabolism, as do carbohydrate and fat, but has minimal effects on blood glucose levels. In well-controlled diabetes, large amounts of protein have the potential to contribute to glucose production, minimally increase blood glucose levels, and require additional small amounts of insulin.”

It even goes further into stating that the insulin response to protein for non-diabetics is even less than the small amounts in diabetics (suggesting a decreased glucose response compared to diabetics).

Protein Controversies in Diabetes

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[Gman86]

Clinical research I’m reviewing doesn’t suggest that this is actually a true statement.

“Protein requires insulin for metabolism, as do carbohydrate and fat, but has minimal effects on blood glucose levels. In well-controlled diabetes, large amounts of protein have the potential to contribute to glucose production, minimally increase blood glucose levels, and require additional small amounts of insulin.”

It even goes further into stating that the insulin response to protein for non-diabetics is even less than the small amounts in diabetics (suggesting a decreased glucose response compared to diabetics).

Protein Controversies in Diabetes

[/QUOTE]

Ya not sure. Anecdotally I just know that most carnivores see a rise in fasting glucose levels. It seems to be a common theme across the board. Dr Paul saladino recently started adding intermittent carbs into his diet as he has found that doing this actually lowers fasting glucose levels. Our ancestors would of definitely eaten intermittent carbs, usually in the form of seasonal fruit and tubers. So not sure about the study tbh. I just know what happens anecdotally to everyone that does carnivore. Also found out recently that fats can be a huge contributor to gluconeogenesis as well, not just protein.

In a recent podcast he did he was talking about a lady that has been on strict carnivore for 5 years and has tested fasting glucose many times and it always floats around 120, which is probably not good, obv.

Gluconeogensis causes the liver to secrete glucose. Isn’t the study talking about digesting proteins and fats and insulin spikes, or lack there of? Wouldn’t glucose levels going up due to digesting proteins and fats and insulin being secreted be different than the liver secreting glucose as necessary to keep us alive?

 

[Sly]

Curious if you had your consult yet and if you inquired about Oxandrolone as a potential add in as for the issues that you mentioned as well as Bpc-157

My consult is this Tuesday. I’ll let you know what the doc says after.

 

[DS3]

There are 86 cited studies in the posted journal article.

Insulin is secreted in response to an increase in blood glucose to shuttle the glucose where it needs to go and reduce glucose levels back to baseline. A review of the literature suggests that consumption of a high protein diet has minimal effect on blood glucose or insulin secretion. Gluconeogenesis is simply the generation of glucose from non-carbohydrate sources in the liver. Gluconeogensis wouldn’t happen asynchronously to the metabolic breakdown of protein, so why would the normal glucose and insulin response from protien consumption not include the process of glucoeneogensis?

 

[Gman86]

There are 86 cited studies in the posted journal article.

Insulin is secreted in response to an increase in blood glucose to shuttle the glucose where it needs to go and reduce glucose levels back to baseline. A review of the literature suggests that consumption of a high protein diet has minimal effect on blood glucose or insulin secretion. Gluconeogenesis is simply the generation of glucose from non-carbohydrate sources in the liver. Gluconeogensis wouldn’t happen asynchronously to the metabolic breakdown of protein, so why would the normal glucose and insulin response from protien consumption not include the process of glucoeneogensis?

Oh makes sense. So when the liver secretes glucose, insulin levels would still have to be secreted to balance them.

I’m sure the people in these studies weren’t carnivore and were also eating carbohydrates. For some reason most carnivores experience increased fasting glucose levels. Some much higher than others. Seems like the ideal diet for humans would be carnivore with intermittent benign carbs. Seems like that’s how our ancestors would of eaten for hundreds of thousands of years, as well as the hominins before humans did for millions of years.

But back to the point ur talking about. There’s just no denying that high amounts of proteins and fats will increase fasting glucose levels. Probably depends on the person how much. Also, like I said before, eating carbs will keep fasting glucose levels lower than if they were omitted, believe it or not. So people in these studies may not see as big of a rise in glucose levels due to them not eating strictly protein and fats.

 

[DS3]

[/QUOTE]

Oh makes sense. So when the liver secretes glucose, insulin levels would still have to be secreted to balance them.

I’m sure the people in these studies weren’t carnivore and were also eating carbohydrates. For some reason most carnivores experience increased fasting glucose levels. Some much higher than others. Seems like the ideal diet for humans would be carnivore with intermittent benign carbs. Seems like that’s how our ancestors would of eaten for hundreds of thousands of years, as well as the hominins before humans did for millions of years.

But back to the point ur talking about. There’s just no denying that high amounts of proteins and fats will increase fasting glucose levels. Probably depends on the person how much. Also, like I said before, eating carbs will keep fasting glucose levels lower than if they were omitted, believe it or not. So people in these studies may not see as big of a rise in glucose levels due to them not eating strictly protein and fats.

"Gannon et al.11 reported on the glucose appearance rate over 8 hours following the ingestion of 50 g protein in the form of very lean beef compared to water in subjects with type 2 diabetes. After water alone, the plasma glucose concentration decreased from 6.7 mmol/l (120 mg/dl) to 5.4 mmol/l (98 mg/dl). After 50 g of protein, the glucose concentration at 1 hour increased by 0.1 mmol/L (3 mg/dl) and then decreased similarly to water. The ingested protein resulted in only ~2 g glucose being produced and released into the circulation. The fate of the remaining absorbed amino acids is unknown. Plasma insulin changed little after water, but after protein there was a threefold increase in insulin and a 50% increase in plasma glucagon." [1]

"To understand this process of gluconeogenesis and the question of why protein does not affect blood glucose levels, it is helpful to briefly review the metabolism of dietary proteins. The majority of protein is digested, and the amino acids not used for gut fuel are metabolized in the intestinal mucosal cells and transported by the portal vein to the liver for protein synthesis or gluconeogenesis.12 In the liver, nonessential amino acids are largely deaminated, and the amino group (nitrogen) removed is converted into urea for excretion in the urine.13 It has been shown that in subjects without and with mild type 2 diabetes, ~50–70% of a 50-g protein meal is accounted for over an 8-hour period by deamination in the liver and intestine and synthesis to urea.14 It has been assumed that the remaining carbon skeletons from the nonessential amino acids are available for glucose synthesis, which would then enter into the general circulation.
The essential amino acids pass through the liver into the general circulation, where they may be removed and used for new protein synthesis or, alternatively, for skeletal muscle fuel. Circulating amino acids stimulate insulin and glucagon secretion. The amino acids that stimulate glucagon are different from those that stimulate insulin secretion.15-17 [1]

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[Nelson Vergel]

Guys, I will close this thread if you guys don't start a new one to talk about protein, etc. Please try to stick with the thread title! Thank you.

Nelson

 

[Gman86]

"Gannon et al.11 reported on the glucose appearance rate over 8 hours following the ingestion of 50 g protein in the form of very lean beef compared to water in subjects with type 2 diabetes. After water alone, the plasma glucose concentration decreased from 6.7 mmol/l (120 mg/dl) to 5.4 mmol/l (98 mg/dl). After 50 g of protein, the glucose concentration at 1 hour increased by 0.1 mmol/L (3 mg/dl) and then decreased similarly to water. The ingested protein resulted in only ~2 g glucose being produced and released into the circulation. The fate of the remaining absorbed amino acids is unknown. Plasma insulin changed little after water, but after protein there was a threefold increase in insulin and a 50% increase in plasma glucagon." [1]

"To understand this process of gluconeogenesis and the question of why protein does not affect blood glucose levels, it is helpful to briefly review the metabolism of dietary proteins. The majority of protein is digested, and the amino acids not used for gut fuel are metabolized in the intestinal mucosal cells and transported by the portal vein to the liver for protein synthesis or gluconeogenesis.12 In the liver, nonessential amino acids are largely deaminated, and the amino group (nitrogen) removed is converted into urea for excretion in the urine.13 It has been shown that in subjects without and with mild type 2 diabetes, ~50–70% of a 50-g protein meal is accounted for over an 8-hour period by deamination in the liver and intestine and synthesis to urea.14 It has been assumed that the remaining carbon skeletons from the nonessential amino acids are available for glucose synthesis, which would then enter into the general circulation.
The essential amino acids pass through the liver into the general circulation, where they may be removed and used for new protein synthesis or, alternatively, for skeletal muscle fuel. Circulating amino acids stimulate insulin and glucagon secretion. The amino acids that stimulate glucagon are different from those that stimulate insulin secretion.15-17 [1]

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Sorry, would reply but Nelson’s right, got to respect the original thread topic