LOW SHBG

[Misery]

I'm not sure how to ask my question, but I would like to know the specifics on why low shbg is such a problem in regards to elevated E2?

I understand that when one is low on shbg that E2 can get out of control, my question is why administering an AI doesn't work.

I'll use my self as an example, when I recently raised my dose from 150mg/weekly divided up daily to 200mg. I passed through the "sweet spot", when acne, bloating, mood swings/anxiety began, I began micro dosing aromasin(one to two drops daily). This helped right away, however after about 7 days doesn't seem to give the same relief.

This has me thinking that there must be some other variable that I am unaware of, like my body is actually automatizing more with the continued AI. I crashed my E2 once and never want that again so I am very conservative with AI dosing. Part of me wants to throw caution to the wind and just take the indicated dose but I fear the crash.

My care is through the VA so I don't have access to all of the labs that most of you do and I simply cannot afford them on my own. I did manage to get the VA to test SHBG once about a year ago and it came back at 18 which was below the range.

So what happens to low SHBG types.... Test reaches stability, E2 climbs and symptoms start, AI is administered, something goes haywire. What is it about low SHBG that E2 seemingly cant be controlled with an AI"?

 

[Systemlord]

It's hard to speculate without labs, but dividing 200mg into a daily protocol is a lot of testosterone and might be part of your problem. Your aromasin dose is pretty weak and your previous experience is more than likely causing you to underdose.

 

[Bryan_K77]

I'm not sure how to ask my question, but I would like to know the specifics on why low shbg is such a problem in regards to elevated E2?

I understand that when one is low on shbg that E2 can get out of control, my question is why administering an AI doesn't work.

I'll use my self as an example, when I recently raised my dose from 150mg/weekly divided up daily to 200mg. I passed through the "sweet spot", when acne, bloating, mood swings/anxiety began, I began micro dosing aromasin(one to two drops daily). This helped right away, however after about 7 days doesn't seem to give the same relief.

This has me thinking that there must be some other variable that I am unaware of, like my body is actually automatizing more with the continued AI. I crashed my E2 once and never want that again so I am very conservative with AI dosing. Part of me wants to throw caution to the wind and just take the indicated dose but I fear the crash.

My care is through the VA so I don't have access to all of the labs that most of you do and I simply cannot afford them on my own. I did manage to get the VA to test SHBG once about a year ago and it came back at 18 which was below the range.

So what happens to low SHBG types.... Test reaches stability, E2 climbs and symptoms start, AI is administered, something goes haywire. What is it about low SHBG that E2 seemingly cant be controlled with an AI"?

You could be insulin resistant. Research the link between insulin and shbg and you could be amazed.

 

[Bryan_K77]

I'm not sure how to ask my question, but I would like to know the specifics on why low shbg is such a problem in regards to elevated E2?

I understand that when one is low on shbg that E2 can get out of control, my question is why administering an AI doesn't work.

I'll use my self as an example, when I recently raised my dose from 150mg/weekly divided up daily to 200mg. I passed through the "sweet spot", when acne, bloating, mood swings/anxiety began, I began micro dosing aromasin(one to two drops daily). This helped right away, however after about 7 days doesn't seem to give the same relief.

This has me thinking that there must be some other variable that I am unaware of, like my body is actually automatizing more with the continued AI. I crashed my E2 once and never want that again so I am very conservative with AI dosing. Part of me wants to throw caution to the wind and just take the indicated dose but I fear the crash.

My care is through the VA so I don't have access to all of the labs that most of you do and I simply cannot afford them on my own. I did manage to get the VA to test SHBG once about a year ago and it came back at 18 which was below the range.

So what happens to low SHBG types.... Test reaches stability, E2 climbs and symptoms start, AI is administered, something goes haywire. What is it about low SHBG that E2 seemingly cant be controlled with an AI"?

Also, my belief that it is almost always better to lower trt dose than to add an ai. Estrogen is very important for a healthy male body and mind. What were your e2 sensitive levels anyways?

 

[Misery]

Guy's I dont mean to be rude but this is the question I am hoping to get answered,

What is it about low SHBG that E2 seemingly cant be controlled with an AI? Is a low SHBG persons body just not capable of balancing E2.

 

[Cataceous]

...
What is it about low SHBG that E2 seemingly cant be controlled with an AI? Is a low SHBG persons body just not capable of balancing E2.

Some interesting speculation by "James" over at PeakT. TL;DR is in bold:

The half-life of free testosterone has been reported to be as low as one minute, but more modern research shows it to be closer to 6 minutes. In eugonadal men, falling serum concentrations of free hormone are replenishable by dissociation of additional free ligand from the binding protien(s).​

​

With SHBG and albumin present in sufficient quantity, the half-life of testosterone becomes 34 minutes. The dissociation of T from SHBG can take up to two hours, but is actually variable based on the serum hormone concentrations.​

​

For example, when isolated in vitro, as serum T increases, SHBG influence on half-life becomes biphasic. However, for E2, the influence on half-life is ascending. With both albumin and SHBG present, the average half-life of T is 34 minutes, the average half-life of E2 is 60 minutes and the average half-life of DHT is 36 minutes. ​

​

One key takeaway is is that the half-life of T in the body changes with serum T concentrations, becoming first longer, but then shorter as T concentrations increase (biphasic.) The metabolic clearance rate of T changes with SHBG concentrations, and is yet another factor to consider (also biphasic: exponential becomes linear progression as SHBG increases.) The half-life of E2 changes as E2 serum concentrations change, becoming longer as E2 levels rise, but metabolic clearance is not affected significantly by SHBG. E2's ascending half-life may be a side effect of this phenomenon, versus T's biphasic response.​

​

I believe the fluctuations we see in low SHBG men that require 3x-7x weekly dosing are due to rapid and highly exaggerated changes in free estradiol due to the above phenomenon as peaks and troughs radically alter free hormone binding and metabolism in the absence of proportionate quantities of SHBG.​

 

[Misery]

Thank you, Cataceous. I feel that hits the nail on its fucking head!

If I'm understanding this correctly, then adding an AI just makes what is a moving target even worse?

Am I creating peaks and troughs with AI? I dose daily, so there shouldn't be any. However it sure feels like everything is constantly fluctuating.

The above is what has me interested in what the guys over at HOT facebook group are doing, my problem is that I cant get past the high E2 symptoms to see if there protocols will work for me. I have been trying since the 27 Dec with micro dosing Liquid Aromasin hoping to ease my way into it. I have failed at that, short of being locked up I see no way forward without the use of an AI.

Anyway now the only thing I can do to feel better is to drop my dose 50mg and wait for the Sweet spot to reappear and rinse and repeat.

I honestly wish that the VA had never tested me for Testosterone, I was better off fat, diabetic and sleeping for 2-3hrs a night.

 

[Cataceous]

...
If I'm understanding this correctly, then adding an AI just makes what is a moving target even worse? ...

It is another variable to adjust, but in some cases a necessary evil if free estradiol is too high relative to free testosterone, something more likely with low SHBG.

...
Am I creating peaks and troughs with AI? ...

It's an interesting question. In theory, with daily use anastrozole's two-day half-life leads to ripples in serum levels with troughs 30% below peaks. If this causes similar variation in estradiol then the answer to the question is "yes".

 

[eli]

I don't know man, the only time E2 matters with low SHBG is when I use injection, when I use the cream, I had E2 all over the place and still felt a million times better

 

[Cataceous]

... when I use the cream, I had E2 all over the place and still felt a million times better

It's been hypothesized that the anti-estrogenic effects of DHT are making this possible.

 

[eli]

It's been hypothesized that the anti-estrogenic effects of DHT are making this possible.

I don't know man, I'm using Injection + Cream with DHT at the top of the range and E2 is being a bitch now. For some odd reason when I introduce injection, this shit happens, all of the sudden E2 becomes a problem

 

[Cataceous]

I don't know man, I'm using Injection + Cream with DHT at the top of the range and E2 is being a bitch now. For some odd reason when I introduce injection, this shit happens, all of the sudden E2 becomes a problem

In general, when guys are on only transdermal testosterone doesn't DHT often end up well over top-of-range? Guys have thrown out numbers like 200 or 300 ng/dL.

 

[eli]

In general, when guys are on only transdermal testosterone doesn't DHT often end up well over top-of-range? Guys have thrown out numbers like 200 or 300 ng/dL.

Yea but I've had lowered my cream solo dose to have dht of 160 and still felt good, but pretty much dht over 100 gave me hairloss.

 

[AveryA86]

It's been hypothesized that the anti-estrogenic effects of DHT are making this possible.

I second this. I have an SHBG of 6-8 on average. DHT via Masteron at 5mg a week TOTAL drastically improved my life and ability to manage estrogen (better). Before I was taking 2mg a day of arimadex.

 

[AveryA86]

I don't know man, I'm using Injection + Cream with DHT at the top of the range and E2 is being a bitch now. For some odd reason when I introduce injection, this shit happens, all of the sudden E2 becomes a problem

My current SHBG is 6-8 on a good day. I also use Masteron (close to pure DHT/ cosmetic anabolic) at 5mg per week to control my estrogen.

I have this same problem when the dose was too high. Guys like us cannot handle large doses as the conversion to E2/ Free T is massive.

And in all honestly, I tend to feel better on lower T levels. Remember for us its about E2 and Test balance. In the event the test is too high, E2 follows that as well.

200mg a week is WAYYY too much when divided amongst the week. Daily Injections show that you do not have to inject (Per Dr. Saya as well) as high doses.

Currently I inject 11mg of Prop a day. Before I was on 22mg Cypionate a day at 154 per week, and that was as high as I could possibly take it. The 140ish mg per week range, often had me feeling my best.

Before going with Masteron as well - I also had E2 all over (mucchh worse than now) and got up to 2mg a day of arimadex. I know how you feel here.

Additionally many have tried prop, some liked it, others did not. I feel pretty awesome on it myself. I find my estrogen levels stay lower, and the T "doesn't" stay in the system as long, which you would think is a negative, but for us, it is not.

I have blood work coming up soon, so I am interested to see where my labs fall.

Anyhow I hope this helps. I have been through hell and back for a decade, so I am sure I can answer any question you have about protocols (what has worked and what has not).

Additionally, I do plan on chatting with Saya about trying Test Cream + Prop to see if we can't get my DHT up a bit and then avoid the masteron all together.

Cheers

 

[mairomaster]

@AveryA86 do you have any solid evidence that 5mg of Masteron a week is doing anything at all? I highly doubt it will have any effect at such a low dose. I've heard people using it at around 100mg a week as an addition to testosterone, to help controlling E2.

 

[Cataceous]

@AveryA86 do you have any solid evidence that 5mg of Masteron a week is doing anything at all? I highly doubt it will have any effect at such a low dose. I've heard people using it at around 100mg a week as an addition to testosterone, to help controlling E2.

It's simple to demonstrate that 5 mg per week of Masteron could be a physiological dose, capable of doubling serum DHT if it actually were DHT. Very roughly, accounting for the propionate ester and dividing into the seven days of the week you end up with ~0.5 mg per day. Then you compare this to the range of endogenous testosterone production, which is 3-9 mg per day. So the DHT:T ratio is around 10%, which matches what's seen with serum levels.

Drostanolone—the DHT variant in Masteron—would have to be considerably less potent than DHT to argue successfully that 100 mg per week of Masteron is not a massive, supraphysiological dose.

 

[AveryA86]

@AveryA86 do you have any solid evidence that 5mg of Masteron a week is doing anything at all? I highly doubt it will have any effect at such a low dose. I've heard people using it at around 100mg a week as an addition to testosterone, to help controlling E2.

I wouldn't post anything here, without evidence and or experience, if it wasn't true.

I have years of bloodwork on Arimadex and Masteron as well. My sensitive Estrogen numbers have been lower on the 5mg of Masteron and exceptionally more stable than I was ever able to achieve on 2mg a day of Arimadex.

What is interesting is that my DHT levels were low on the last reading, and I can tell you at times, that even 6mg of Masteron, broken up into 2 x 3mg injections, has crashed my E2 on many many occasions so in my case, I am extremely sensitive to DHT.

It seems as though a missing link in my system is DHT as well as the other myriad of issues I seem to have at times, however for the topic of conversation at hand;

Finding Masteron genuinely saved my life. Period.

I would like to close with that it is incredibly important to note that we all are, and can be so incredibly different from a physiological perspective, I really don't understand why people immediately feel the need to jump immediately into pointing the finger of doubt at someone, when clearly that person is stating success, albeit with a non-traditional protocol. (I am not calling anyone out here, this a statement of the larger at will populace).

I should also note, that I do have friends as well who run Masteron (and some who manage estrogen with Equipoise) in the 100-300mg range on TRT and have success, some get little to zero help on 300mg and need to run higher, so again it's just so darn individual ha.

Those guys in the 200+ range tend to have "very normal TRT protocols" i.e 2 x .50mg Arimadex a week, 2 x 100mg Test Cyp a week etc etc. I would love to have that type of body/ protocol!! However, we all deal the cards we're delt, aye?

Anyhow, I hope this helps someone out! God knows we all struggle at times with TRT/ life.

Cheers fellas

 

[camygod]

I wouldn't post anything here, without evidence and or experience, if it wasn't true.

I have years of bloodwork on Arimadex and Masteron as well. My sensitive Estrogen numbers have been lower on the 5mg of Masteron and exceptionally more stable than I was ever able to achieve on 2mg a day of Arimadex.

What is interesting is that my DHT levels were low on the last reading, and I can tell you at times, that even 6mg of Masteron, broken up into 2 x 3mg injections, has crashed my E2 on many many occasions so in my case, I am extremely sensitive to DHT.

It seems as though a missing link in my system is DHT as well as the other myriad of issues I seem to have at times, however for the topic of conversation at hand;

Finding Masteron genuinely saved my life. Period.

I would like to close with that it is incredibly important to note that we all are, and can be so incredibly different from a physiological perspective, I really don't understand why people immediately feel the need to jump immediately into pointing the finger of doubt at someone, when clearly that person is stating success, albeit with a non-traditional protocol. (I am not calling anyone out here, this a statement of the larger at will populace).

I should also note, that I do have friends as well who run Masteron (and some who manage estrogen with Equipoise) in the 100-300mg range on TRT and have success, some get little to zero help on 300mg and need to run higher, so again it's just so darn individual ha.

Those guys in the 200+ range tend to have "very normal TRT protocols" i.e 2 x .50mg Arimadex a week, 2 x 100mg Test Cyp a week etc etc. I would love to have that type of body/ protocol!! However, we all deal the cards we're delt, aye?

Anyhow, I hope this helps someone out! God knows we all struggle at times with TRT/ life.

Cheers fellas

how do you adminster the masteron is it 5mmg once a week or ? i pressume your using mast prop

 

[AveryA86]

how do you adminster the masteron is it 5mmg once a week or ? i pressume your using mast prop

I use a insulin syringe either .3cc or .5cc. I like the .3cc as there is more space in-between the tick marks, but the 1/2cc is easy as well. I then backload the compound into another slin that has my hcg and test combined.

Hope this helps!