Looking for experiences on Test+FSH+HCG

[dylanh429]

Hi all,
I've been lurking on the forum for some time now, and this is my first post. I'll cut right to it. I am in my early 20s, and have been experiencing symptoms of low T, mainly fatigue, weight gain, and difficulty putting on muscle (and luckily not sexual symptoms, I can and do enjoy having sex daily, although I suspect that having low T for a long time might jeopardize that). I took multiple blood tests, with my highest reading being around 400 Total T. I started on clomid a couple months ago, and for the first couple weeks I took it, I felt great. My dick was absolutely out of control, my brain fog had 100% vanished, I felt more confident, I had a return of morning wood, and I started a relationship with a great woman. That effect has drastically diminished after the first couple weeks, as has my morning wood, even though i was continuing on my clomid (50mgED) and my total T had not dropped under 1000. I suspect this has to do with an overall drop in my free T and a drastic drop IGF-1, even though my total T had nearly tripled. I have also been experiencing eye-floaters, which i hear is a side effect of clomid, and many people stop taking it due to that effect. All of these things considered, I have learned that clomid is not an option for me. However, I would kill to feel as alpha as I did those first couple weeks on clomid, so it looks like my only way of achieving that is full-blown TRT. That was a long background, but I've been asked on other forums why im considering TRT at such a young age, so I thought I'd get that out of the way.

Ok, so here's my reason for posting on the forum. Obviously, because I want to have kids in the distant future, fertility is my biggest priority. I have heard great things about Test+HCG, but I have also read far too many stories about men on HCG + Test and still ending up with a drastically dimished sperm count. I figured that this was just the plight of men who want to feel like men through TRT, but then I came across this post on ExcelMale: Semen analysis results after adding FSH to TRT and hCG This completely changed my outlook on TRT. I Assumed that there was no way to keep FSH levels high, and I didn't know that it could cost as little as 1500/year.

I am just going to add FSH to my TRT+HCG protocol. From what I understand, if you can keep FSH and LH numbers high, you will not see any decrease in sperm production while doing Test shots. Is this true? Is anyone else on the forum doing this? If so, what kind of results have you had? Also, why is there not more talk about FSH on forums that I can find?

Appreciate all responses,
Dylan

 

[Vince]

You're taking too high a dose of Clomid, I believe it should be 12.5 mg everyday, every other day, or twice a week.

Are guys that do well on low dose clomid unicorns...or do they really exist?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I would suggest what Vince said. FSH is really expensive and clomiphene can ensure fertility on most men your age.

 

[dylanh429]

I would suggest what Vince said. FSH is really expensive and clomiphene can ensure fertility on most men your age.

Thanks for the response Nelson. Big fan of your forum. There's a lot of great information here for newbies like me. I will lower the clomid to 25 ED and see if that's affected my test production then lower it to 12.5 ED if I haven't seen a decrease in serum test. If clomid turns out not to be an option to me, I'm wondering about the cost of FSH, as that would be necessary to a possible TRT protocol for me. My pockets are deep enough to handle the $1500/year price tag that was mentioned on the thread linked in my post. Is the 1200 IU vial at empower pharmacy no longer running around $300?

 

[dylanh429]

I was also prescribed anastrozole to help with my E2. I had slight estrogen symptoms at 60 E (sensitive test) i.e. soft dick (before clomid, even at 400 total T it was consistently so hard that it hurt), water retention, and i even noticed some slight gynecomastia. I was instructed by my doctor to take 1 mg EOD for 2 weeks to bring it back down, then 1mg once a week. Does this sounds like an appropriate anastrozole dosage to you?

 

[Vince]

I was also prescribed anastrozole to help with my E2. I had slight estrogen symptoms at 60 E (sensitive test) i.e. soft dick (before clomid, even at 400 total T it was consistently so hard that it hurt), water retention, and i even noticed some slight gynecomastia. I was instructed by my doctor to take 1 mg EOD for 2 weeks to bring it back down, then 1mg once a week. Does this sounds like an appropriate anastrozole dosage to you?

That's also way too high. If your estradiol is only 60, I wouldn't go higher then .125 once a week.

 

[Vince Carter]

I was also prescribed anastrozole to help with my E2. I had slight estrogen symptoms at 60 E (sensitive test) i.e. soft dick (before clomid, even at 400 total T it was consistently so hard that it hurt), water retention, and i even noticed some slight gynecomastia. I was instructed by my doctor to take 1 mg EOD for 2 weeks to bring it back down, then 1mg once a week. Does this sounds like an appropriate anastrozole dosage to you?

Its completely uncalled for, that much Anastrozole which is a consequence of being overdosed on Clomid, as Vince noted you're using way too much. even 25mg/D is too much.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

The cheapest FSH costs $350 for 1,200 IU. Min dose is 50-100 IU twice to 3 times per week along with 1,500 IU HCG twice or 3 times per week. No one has done a study using TRT+HCG+FSH and measuring sperm count.

Here is an anecdote:
Semen analysis results after adding FSH to TRT and hCG

 

[dylanh429]

Appreciate the replies everyone, this has been very helpful. I will maybe do a personal study on clomid and see how dropping my dose to 25mg EOD affects my total T.

 

[daves52380]

The cheapest FSH costs $350 for 1,200 IU. Min dose is 50-100 IU twice to 3 times per week along with 1,500 IU HCG twice or 3 times per week. No one has done a study using TRT+HCG+FSH and measuring sperm count.

Here is an anecdote:
Semen analysis results after adding FSH to TRT and hCG

Nelson, I’m having the same problem. Low LH and FSH levels while on TRT. Trying to conceive and having difficulties. Would’nt TRT+HCG+FSH be the best option for increasing viable sperm count? If not, what course do you see as being most practical with best chances of success?

 

[HealthMan]

Nelson, I’m having the same problem. Low LH and FSH levels while on TRT. Trying to conceive and having difficulties. Would’nt TRT+HCG+FSH be the best option for increasing viable sperm count? If not, what course do you see as being most practical with best chances of success?

Less costly is stop TRT and run clomid. TRT + HCG + FSH worked for me but will cost you a few thousando dollar a year

 

[Sides]

TRT + HCG + HMG (mixed FSH and LH) has definitely worked for me in restoring fertility after many years of being on testosterone. It is expensive, as insurance typically will never pay for fertility treatments, but worth it for guys who want to keep their fertility while still using testosterone, or regain their fertility after many years of using testosterone.

I am 50, used to be a competitive bodybuilder and powerlifter, and have been taking test and other anabolic steroids for 26 years now...on and off, but mostly on. My last time off was in 2010, I have been on testosterone without a break for almost 8 years now.

I have children with an ex-wife, but got married to another woman in October of 2017. We each have our own fertility concerns, as I am 50 and she is 41, but we wanted to try for at least one more child of our own. Unfortunately, I was completely azoospermatic, no sperm at all. And she had been on doctor-prescribed birth control for several years, and it was very hard for both of us to get our bodies started up again.

In November of 2017 I started on my "everything but the kitchen sink" fertility program, which has changed over the months but has evolved to the following:

200mg test cypionate per week
500iu HCG every other day
60iu HMG (mixed FSH and LH) every day
50mg Clomid every day
25mg Proviron every day
2-4iu HGH every day

This program seems to have been successful. My wife and I had IVF done last week. They extracted 21 eggs from her, of which my sperm fertilized 14. Three embryos survived to become 5-day blastocysts, ready for freezing or implantation. So hopefully I will be a father again soon.

My sperm count started out at zero, completely azoospermatic. But as the months went on it rose to 4 million per ml, then to 7 million per ml, then eventually to 12 million. Sperm motility, morphology, and forward progression started out very poor, but continued to get better and better as the months went on.

HMG (mixed FSH and LH) was definitely an important factor, and may have been the game changer I needed.

If I look at the different semen analyses that were done, 6 months of HCG restored my sperm count to 4 million, but with poor motility and forward progression. Adding HMG triggered the increase to 7 million and then 12 million, and vastly improved the motility, morphology, and forward progression.

So I would definitely recommend taking HMG if you can, or even better recombinant FSH. My fertility doctor would never prescribe HMG or FSH for me, so I had to buy it on my own from online sources.

I included a bunch of different drugs in my protocol, just to cover all the bases, but in reality T and HCG and HMG, or even better T and HCG and FSH, is probably all you need.

HCG is a longer-acting analogue for LH (luteinizing hormone), so replaces what naturally-produced LH would normally do, stimulating the Leydig cells in the testicles to produce high amount of intra-testicular testosterone, necessary for optimal sperm production.

The other necessary factor in producing sperm is FSH (follicle stimulating hormone), which stimulates the Sertoli cells (80% of the mass of the testicles) to produce and mature sperm.

Both FSH and LH (or HCG) are necessary for optimal sperm production.

HMG (human menopausal gonadotropin) is a bit of a tricky drug, because it contains both FSH and LH. This would seem perfect for sperm production, but there are not high enough levels of LH in HMG to obtain high enough levels of intra-testicular testosterone for optimal sperm production. That's why fertility programs always includes HCG along with the HMG, so that both the Leydig cells and the Sertoli cells will be optimally stimulated to produce as much sperm as possible.

An even better option than HMG is to take FSH along with the HCG, but it is very hard to get FSH and it is usually very expensive. I had to buy my wife's FSH for our IVF cycle, and a 900iu pen of Gonal-F cost me $714 with a big discount from the pharmacy. Usually the 900iu pens cost over $2000.

But just yesterday, I was finally able to convince my fertility doctor to prescribe me FSH from Empower Pharmacy in Texas. A 1200iu vial of FSH only cost me $325, which is the lowest priced FSH anywhere in America. I also get my HCG prescribed from Empower, and 50,000iu of HCG only costs me $250 from them. So with overnight shipping with cold packs, my total for 1200iu FSH and 50,000iu HCG was only $615. This is the greatest bargain you will ever find in fertility treatments, and I am ecstatic that my doctor finally agreed to prescribe me FSH from them.

So I would suggest to anybody who is interested in regaining their fertility to try to get their doctor to prescribe them HCG and HMG or FSH.

The program evolved as it went along. I didn't have access to HMG or FSH for the first few months, which would have helped a lot more. I added small amounts of a Chinese generic HMG in April, then got pharma grade Menopur in July and Merional in August from black market sources.

My FSH and LH were zero when I started, but taking the Merional at 60iu per day brought FSH up to a consistent 5.0 on a range from 1.5-12.4 miu/ml. Having earlier access to HMG would have helped more, but I couldn't get my fertility doctor to prescribe it, and I was limited to what I could buy on the black market.

My fertility doctor wanted to increase my HCG to 3000iu every other day, but that was way too much for me and raised my E2 levels above the top of the range, 64.7 on a range from 0-60.7 pg/ml (non-sensitive E2 test). This caused me gynecomastia, anxiety, lack of libido, and erectile dysfunction. My fertility doctor's response to this was to prescribe me an aromatase inhibitor, Letrozole, at 2.5mg per day. Again, that was way too much for me and crashed my E2, causing me even worse libido and erectile dysfunction, although it did help clear up my gynecomastia. I cut back on the Letrozole to .5mg every other day, but after 6 weeks my E2 was still crashed at <5.0 on a range from 0-60.7 pg/ml, so I cut out the Letrozole completely. If I had to do it all over again, I would have kept the HCG at 500iu every other day, and avoided the use of Letrozole completely. Moderate consistent low doses of the drugs has been much better to me than high doses of anything, although I can appreciate that there are studies where the high doses have worked for people.

Regarding Proviron and Clomid, I am not sure how much they helped or hurt depending on their effects. I started out with good free test numbers (21.0 on a range from 7.2-24.0 pg/mL, total test at 1014 ng/dL), but as the program went on my SHBG rose to very high levels (112.5 on a range from 19.3-76.4 nmol/L).

This obviously had a negative effect on my levels of free test and free E2, both of which are important to libido and erectile function, not to mention muscle strength and size. And my libido was good at first but much worse as the program went on, although obviously it is hard to separate out the combined effects of all the compounds involved (HCG, HMG, Proviron, Clomid, the letrozole my fertility doc had me on for a while before it drove E2 too low, etc.)

In the end, I can only be happy and grateful to God that the program seems to have worked. I was able to recover my sperm count after many years of anabolic steroid use, and successfully fertilize my wife's eggs, and hopefully we will have a baby in the near future. However, I am always interested if the program could have been better or worse, for other people who want to try a fertility program in the future.

But at least my experience has shown that the program did work, even for someone like myself who has used steroids for many years. You can regain your sperm count and have children without ever having to go off of testosterone. So I am grateful that it all seems to have worked out for the best.

 

[Etownone]

TRT + HCG + HMG (mixed FSH and LH) has definitely worked for me in restoring fertility after many years of being on testosterone. It is expensive, as insurance typically will never pay for fertility treatments, but worth it for guys who want to keep their fertility while still using testosterone, or regain their fertility after many years of using testosterone.

I am 50, used to be a competitive bodybuilder and powerlifter, and have been taking test and other anabolic steroids for 26 years now...on and off, but mostly on. My last time off was in 2010, I have been on testosterone without a break for almost 8 years now.

I have children with an ex-wife, but got married to another woman in October of 2017. We each have our own fertility concerns, as I am 50 and she is 41, but we wanted to try for at least one more child of our own. Unfortunately, I was completely azoospermatic, no sperm at all. And she had been on doctor-prescribed birth control for several years, and it was very hard for both of us to get our bodies started up again.

In November of 2017 I started on my "everything but the kitchen sink" fertility program, which has changed over the months but has evolved to the following:

200mg test cypionate per week
500iu HCG every other day
60iu HMG (mixed FSH and LH) every day
50mg Clomid every day
25mg Proviron every day
2-4iu HGH every day

This program seems to have been successful. My wife and I had IVF done last week. They extracted 21 eggs from her, of which my sperm fertilized 14. Three embryos survived to become 5-day blastocysts, ready for freezing or implantation. So hopefully I will be a father again soon.

My sperm count started out at zero, completely azoospermatic. But as the months went on it rose to 4 million per ml, then to 7 million per ml, then eventually to 12 million. Sperm motility, morphology, and forward progression started out very poor, but continued to get better and better as the months went on.

HMG (mixed FSH and LH) was definitely an important factor, and may have been the game changer I needed.

If I look at the different semen analyses that were done, 6 months of HCG restored my sperm count to 4 million, but with poor motility and forward progression. Adding HMG triggered the increase to 7 million and then 12 million, and vastly improved the motility, morphology, and forward progression.

So I would definitely recommend taking HMG if you can, or even better recombinant FSH. My fertility doctor would never prescribe HMG or FSH for me, so I had to buy it on my own from online sources.

I included a bunch of different drugs in my protocol, just to cover all the bases, but in reality T and HCG and HMG, or even better T and HCG and FSH, is probably all you need.

HCG is a longer-acting analogue for LH (luteinizing hormone), so replaces what naturally-produced LH would normally do, stimulating the Leydig cells in the testicles to produce high amount of intra-testicular testosterone, necessary for optimal sperm production.

The other necessary factor in producing sperm is FSH (follicle stimulating hormone), which stimulates the Sertoli cells (80% of the mass of the testicles) to produce and mature sperm.

Both FSH and LH (or HCG) are necessary for optimal sperm production.

HMG (human menopausal gonadotropin) is a bit of a tricky drug, because it contains both FSH and LH. This would seem perfect for sperm production, but there are not high enough levels of LH in HMG to obtain high enough levels of intra-testicular testosterone for optimal sperm production. That's why fertility programs always includes HCG along with the HMG, so that both the Leydig cells and the Sertoli cells will be optimally stimulated to produce as much sperm as possible.

An even better option than HMG is to take FSH along with the HCG, but it is very hard to get FSH and it is usually very expensive. I had to buy my wife's FSH for our IVF cycle, and a 900iu pen of Gonal-F cost me $714 with a big discount from the pharmacy. Usually the 900iu pens cost over $2000.

But just yesterday, I was finally able to convince my fertility doctor to prescribe me FSH from Empower Pharmacy in Texas. A 1200iu vial of FSH only cost me $325, which is the lowest priced FSH anywhere in America. I also get my HCG prescribed from Empower, and 50,000iu of HCG only costs me $250 from them. So with overnight shipping with cold packs, my total for 1200iu FSH and 50,000iu HCG was only $615. This is the greatest bargain you will ever find in fertility treatments, and I am ecstatic that my doctor finally agreed to prescribe me FSH from them.

So I would suggest to anybody who is interested in regaining their fertility to try to get their doctor to prescribe them HCG and HMG or FSH.

The program evolved as it went along. I didn't have access to HMG or FSH for the first few months, which would have helped a lot more. I added small amounts of a Chinese generic HMG in April, then got pharma grade Menopur in July and Merional in August from black market sources.

My FSH and LH were zero when I started, but taking the Merional at 60iu per day brought FSH up to a consistent 5.0 on a range from 1.5-12.4 miu/ml. Having earlier access to HMG would have helped more, but I couldn't get my fertility doctor to prescribe it, and I was limited to what I could buy on the black market.

My fertility doctor wanted to increase my HCG to 3000iu every other day, but that was way too much for me and raised my E2 levels above the top of the range, 64.7 on a range from 0-60.7 pg/ml (non-sensitive E2 test). This caused me gynecomastia, anxiety, lack of libido, and erectile dysfunction. My fertility doctor's response to this was to prescribe me an aromatase inhibitor, Letrozole, at 2.5mg per day. Again, that was way too much for me and crashed my E2, causing me even worse libido and erectile dysfunction, although it did help clear up my gynecomastia. I cut back on the Letrozole to .5mg every other day, but after 6 weeks my E2 was still crashed at <5.0 on a range from 0-60.7 pg/ml, so I cut out the Letrozole completely. If I had to do it all over again, I would have kept the HCG at 500iu every other day, and avoided the use of Letrozole completely. Moderate consistent low doses of the drugs has been much better to me than high doses of anything, although I can appreciate that there are studies where the high doses have worked for people.

Regarding Proviron and Clomid, I am not sure how much they helped or hurt depending on their effects. I started out with good free test numbers (21.0 on a range from 7.2-24.0 pg/mL, total test at 1014 ng/dL), but as the program went on my SHBG rose to very high levels (112.5 on a range from 19.3-76.4 nmol/L).

This obviously had a negative effect on my levels of free test and free E2, both of which are important to libido and erectile function, not to mention muscle strength and size. And my libido was good at first but much worse as the program went on, although obviously it is hard to separate out the combined effects of all the compounds involved (HCG, HMG, Proviron, Clomid, the letrozole my fertility doc had me on for a while before it drove E2 too low, etc.)

In the end, I can only be happy and grateful to God that the program seems to have worked. I was able to recover my sperm count after many years of anabolic steroid use, and successfully fertilize my wife's eggs, and hopefully we will have a baby in the near future. However, I am always interested if the program could have been better or worse, for other people who want to try a fertility program in the future.

But at least my experience has shown that the program did work, even for someone like myself who has used steroids for many years. You can regain your sperm count and have children without ever having to go off of testosterone. So I am grateful that it all seems to have worked out for the best.

Congrats on and good luck.
Your story and protocol gives me hope.

 

[Sides]

Congrats on and good luck.
Your story and protocol gives me hope.

Thanks, happy to help and offer hope to others. After my 27 years of testosterone use, my wife is pregnant and we are due to deliver a healthy baby in November.

One note to my previous post: don't use Proviron or other DHT-based compounds to try to increase sperm count. Long term use of Proviron has messed up my libido, natural DHT levels, and given me gynecomastia when I tried to stop using it. Don't make the mistake of staying on Proviron for a long time, as I did.

Stick with Test, HCG, and HMG or FSH and you should be fine.

 

[luckyg]

@Sides, did you monitor your blood work after starting FSH/HMG?

Can I get your thoughts on what FSH and LH should be showing if the HCG and HMG are working.

I've been on HCG 500iu EOD now for 15 months. But only on HMG for 1 month now.

Here are my bloods pre taking HMG one month ago:

and my blood work today, after one month as I wanted to see how the HMG was working via blood markers.

I know the key indicator is a semen analysis which I will do next week. I appreciate it is premature to expect good results after one month - I am aiming for 3 months success but I wanted to document everything after 1,2 and 3 months to show it as a case study of what happens to blood and semen parameters. I will get semen test every of the 3 months also. I an then also create an informative post in here on the topic to help others.

It's hard to find info on the net about the effect of HMG on blood markers. Do you know @Sides if FSH and LH should be back in the normal range after taking HCG and HMG?

I am probably being silly and LH won't ever come on blood marker as maybe it only shows up endogenous LH hormone? But FSH has risen a little after one month. I wonder are they different in that respect.

Would love to hear some input from you

Many thanks

 

[Sides]

@Sides, did you monitor your blood work after starting FSH/HMG?

Can I get your thoughts on what FSH and LH should be showing if the HCG and HMG are working.

I've been on HCG 500iu EOD now for 15 months. But only on HMG for 1 month now.

Here are my bloods pre taking HMG one month ago:
View attachment 7636
and my blood work today, after one month as I wanted to see how the HMG was working via blood markers.

View attachment 7637
View attachment 7638
I know the key indicator is a semen analysis which I will do next week. I appreciate it is premature to expect good results after one month - I am aiming for 3 months success but I wanted to document everything after 1,2 and 3 months to show it as a case study of what happens to blood and semen parameters. I will get semen test every of the 3 months also. I an then also create an informative post in here on the topic to help others.

It's hard to find info on the net about the effect of HMG on blood markers. Do you know @Sides if FSH and LH should be back in the normal range after taking HCG and HMG?

I am probably being silly and LH won't ever come on blood marker as maybe it only shows up endogenous LH hormone? But FSH has risen a little after one month. I wonder are they different in that respect.

Would love to hear some input from you

Many thanks

@luckyg as you say, the semen analysis is everything. But if your HMG is real, it should definitely be showing up on the lab test, depending on when you last injected it.

My FSH and LH were zero when I started, but taking the Merional HMG at 60iu per day (I did twice-daily injections because of the short half-life, although less frequent injections should also work according to the scientific literature) brought FSH up to a consistent 5.0 on a range from 1.5-12.4 miu/ml.

LH always showed as zero, as HCG is an analogue of LH, and the half-life of injected LH is very short. But if you do an injection last night or that morning, you should be showing positive for FSH if your HMG is real.

When I was using a Chinese generic HMG, my FSH still tested zero, which led me to believe the product was fake. But using real Menopur and Merional I always tested positive for FSH.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Be aware of this. Deadline for comments Feb 15, 2020

Your Access to More Economical hCG and FSH May End- Send Comments to the FDA

 

[Etownone]

Been dealing with a great urologist for past 8 months..

Test 200pg wkly
Hcg 500 x 2 wkly
And anastrozole 1/2g wkly

Just got my Sperm analysis done.
I was expecting the worst, but it was better then expected.
Dr said at 26 mil I could get my girl pregnant, but if we are really trying... I can stop the testosterone temporarily and just do 1000 Hcg 3 times weekly.
Can anyone give me their opinion?

 

[HealthMan]

Been dealing with a great urologist for past 8 months..

Test 200pg wkly
Hcg 500 x 2 wkly
And anastrozole 1/2g wkly

Just got my Sperm analysis done.
I was expecting the worst, but it was better then expected.
Dr said at 26 mil I could get my girl pregnant, but if we are really trying... I can stop the testosterone temporarily and just do 1000 Hcg 3 times weekly.
Can anyone give me their opinion?

Morphology looks poor. FSH improved morphology a lot in my case

 

[Etownone]

Morphology looks poor. FSH improved morphology a lot in my case

Yeah.. My DC said the volume was good but the morphology looked poor.

I heard FSH Def helps.
I also hear getting a prescription for FSM is hard too. Did your doctor prescribe it to you?