Is TRT being co'oped for easy gains?

[andrewBwinter]

Wasn't sure where to post this but I am seeing more and more young, healthy individuals promoting TRT in the fitness/influencer industry.

It's almost as if it is seen as a quick route to gaining muscle in the gym as opposed to raising T back to healthy levels for a more stable physical and emotional life.

While I appreciate that anyone can have low T due to concussion and other outside factors, the current promotion seems more like TRT is a new wonder drug that, "you gotta be on it bro"

Thoughts?

 

[tareload]

In this context Lifestyle drug with potentially unknown consequences down the road. But with all the other crap in the environment maybe it is worthy proactive intervention?

Good thread. Thank you.

PS: as had been discussed on here, if I can use T for FTM then surely I can use T for body dysmorphia or gainz. It is all about what I feel right? The stigma seems to be changing.

 

[bixt]

I am seeing more and more young, healthy individuals promoting TRT in the fitness/influencer industry

Whoa! Don't lump hard working fitness coaches and influencers together.

Fitness coaches may or may not be using "roids" with their clients, and it's between them and their clients. Marketed by word of mouth and dealing are in private.

Influencers - publicly and shamelessly promote roids to the naive in the name of "TRT", but trust me, it's all for the likes and fame. The young and gullible are looking for a shortcut to big biceps and a 6 pack, and these so called "influencers" fully capitalise on that.

 

[andrewBwinter]

I'm trying to get to the distinction between tested patients under the guidance of a doctor or clinician that monitors blood work and mental health by using TR Therapy, as opposed to a potentially illegitimate application of Test as a means to an untherapeutic end. If I explained it properly.

In other words not all TRT is TRT...

 

[Cataceous]

...
It's almost as if it is seen as a quick route to gaining muscle in the gym as opposed to raising T back to healthy levels for a more stable physical and emotional life.
...

For the average guy who is eugonadal, physiological testosterone dosing is probably not going to do much for him—with respect to quickly gaining muscle. In fact he may not accomplish much besides scrambling a bunch of other hormones. If he steps up to larger doses to get those gains then he's gone supraphysiological, and he can no longer claim to be on TRT—at least in my opinion. Hopefully you've read @readalot's related threads, e.g.:

What is TRT and What is NOT TRT

Note: I originally posted this over at T-Nation so hope it's ok if I share it here @Nelson Vergel. Had an interesting and lively exchange over there with one of the proponents of the "TOT" protocol (Testosterone Optimization Therapy as it is called). This short summary gives guys a look of...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

A few pieces of necessary context: 1) There is a clear epidemic (at least in the US) of de-masculanized men, so erring on the side of more T is likely a very good thing until the root causes are eliminated. There are weak, submissive, compliant men everywhere you look who are unable to fulfill the necessary male roles in a human community. 2) I take issue with the term "easy" gains because it implies that the same gains can be eventually achieved without anabolics. If anabolics are lacking, no amount of training and diet will give satisfactory gains. 3) This site and others are filled with evidence that most mainstream doctors are not up to speed on T therapy, so relying on them as a gatekeeper will further the problem, not solve it. Have mainstream doctors stepped up to even sound the alarm, let alone solve problem One above? 4) If we put our heads together here, we could easily come up with at least 50 things that are pushed or allowed by medical authorities that are far more harmful than an occasional over-prescription of T, so I don't think this is an issue to be concerned with in the grand scheme of things.

 

[tareload]

take issue with the term "easy" gains because it implies that the same gains can be eventually achieved without anabolics. If anabolics are lacking, no amount of training and diet will give satisfactory gains

To be a complete ass and stickler, the whole idea of gains is completely retarded in the context of human evolution. In a survival situation we would all be too busy trying to procure food and survive period as well as pass on our DNA. We would not be preoccupied with the narcissistic hobby of getting the sweet gains. So clearly life has become too easy and you all (and me) are diseased. But fear not, mother nature will self correct soon (on a long enough timeline) and get males back on the right track. Ok lecture done. Back to your mirrors and impedance scales.

The idea that all this gen needs is some more T is probably wrong too but more years of me preaching ain't going to get anywhere. So enjoy your excess T guys. What the hell.

 

[BigTex]

Wasn't sure where to post this but I am seeing more and more young, healthy individuals promoting TRT in the fitness/influencer industry.

It's almost as if it is seen as a quick route to gaining muscle in the gym as opposed to raising T back to healthy levels for a more stable physical and emotional life.

While I appreciate that anyone can have low T due to concussion and other outside factors, the current promotion seems more like TRT is a new wonder drug that, "you gotta be on it bro"

Thoughts?

@andrewBwinter when I competed in powerlifting TRT begain to be a way to beat drug testoing in tested federations/divisions. All you had to bring was a letter from your doctor that you were androgen deficient and have been prescribed Testosterone, but you are still drug free. These were the same guys who got up on the platform and beat their chest yelling I'M DRUG FREE....their lifts still suck but they have an excuse. Many federations had tested and untested divisions. So those of us who chose to be honest and say nothing had to put up with these childish rants.

I see the same thing on BB boards, guy talking about being on TRT and taking 500mg, test, 600mg of primabolin etc. Then they use the excuse of blasting and crusing. It is pretty common knowledge that after blasting you can take off all the drugs for 4 weeks or so and go to a doctor and be diagnosed with low T. Now you have a script and are legal and in their minds, on TRT.

 

[BigTex]

To be a complete ass and stickler, the whole idea of gains is completely retarded in the context of human evolution. In a survival situation we would all be too busy trying to procure food and survive period as well as pass on our DNA. We would not preoccupied with the narcissistic hobby of getting the sweet gains. So clearly life has become too easy and you all (and me) are diseased. But fear not, mother nature will self correct soon (on a long enough timeline) and get males back on the right track. Ok lecture done. Back to your mirrors and impedance scales.

The idea that all this gen needs is some more T is probably wrong too but more years of me preaching ain't going to get anywhere. So enjoy your excess T guys. What the hell.

@readalot, I agree that bodybuilding is a tad narcissistic but the act of building the body has been dated back the 6th century BC with guys like Milos of Croton who lifted cows to develop strenght and muscle size. The ancient greeks were well know for men developing their physiques. The first American physique contest, staged by physical culturists Bernarr MacFadden (1868–1955), took place in 1903 in NYC. Most BB'er at most levels are broke ass gym rats. Only best of the best ever get pro cards and only those that place top 5 make any money doing what they do. So it is a very expensive hobby, kind of like powerlifting to me was. All i got was cheap trophies and memories. But its that dream of success that seem to drive most. But then some are happy with getting laid. Most these guys on board never compete anywhere except on the boards.

 

[tareload]

@readalot, I agree that bodybuilding is a tad narcissistic but the act of building the body has been dated back the 6th century BC with guys like Milos of Croton who lifted cows to develop strenght and muscle size. The ancient greeks were well know for men developing their physiques. The first American physique contest, staged by physical culturists Bernarr MacFadden (1868–1955), took place in 1903 in NYC. Most BB'er at most levels are broke ass gym rats. Only best of the best ever get pro cards and only those that place top 5 make any money doing what they do. So it is a very expensive hobby, kind of like powerlifting to me was. All i got was cheap trophies and memories. But its that dream of success that seem to drive most. But then some are happy with getting laid. Most these guys on board never compete anywhere except on the boards.

Hey it is the real athletes like you that give everyone else that glimmer of hope they can be like that. The dream doesn't die @BigTex. But as you remind me only a few are the chosen and have the combination of genes, work ethic and will.

On a lighter note can you imagine trying to keep a FFMI of 28 or 30 in a wild, raw survival situation?

Reminds me of this post. BB would be in for a world of hurt coming off cycle and off that 300+ g protein per day while scrounging for calories. Cardio, cardio, cardio.... we were all lucky to live in such abundant times and 10 lb jars of whey protein and $3/gal gasoline. Incredible.

Been on TRT for 7 Months. Getting Ready to Try 4 Weeks of Dbol

Let’s say you achieve what you wish for? Best possible, genetic 1 ppb case: Another very successful chap from development perspective: How would you rate their functional fitness? Now what? As you get older, you have to consider how any additional weight (muscle or fat) will...

forums.t-nation.com

 

[tareload]

Somehow I don't think BB and easy gains will have a long shelf life....

Enjoy while you can. Sorry for giving all the TOT guys such a hard time with all that boring science stuff.

 

[bixt]

There are weak, submissive, compliant men everywhere you look who are unable to fulfill the necessary male roles in a human community.

Well, thats what the media and feminism would have you believe is the definition of a good non toxic gentleman.

Honestly, the time has come where its every man for himself. Try to preach ideas of strengh, assertiveness and how to stand up for yourself and you will be labelled a rapist. I kid you not.

But then some are happy with getting laid.

Oh yes indeed! This is why I started lifting in the first place. It is and was always about the girls. Seriously, good biceps are a good tool to have in your toolbox. At least for initial attraction. Yes, I know, there are many ways to skin an animal.

From an evolutionary biology perspective, females are wired to select the strongest man, which would ensure the best protection, care and ultimately survival. Thats in their genes and nothing can change that hard wiring. Good muscles, by proxy, are a subconscious indicator of being able to fullfill the above, and would certainly ensure more success in finding a mate than a less muscularly endowed man.

 

[BigTex]

I completely agree with you!

 

[BigTex]

Hey it is the real athletes like you that give everyone else that glimmer of hope they can be like that. The dream doesn't die @BigTex. But as you remind me only a few are the chosen and have the combination of genes, work ethic and will.

On a lighter note can you imagine trying to keep a FFMI of 28 or 30 in a wild, raw survival situation?

Reminds me of this post. BB would be in for a world of hurt coming off cycle and off that 300+ g protein per day while scrounging for calories. Cardio, cardio, cardio.... we were all lucky to live in such abundant times and 10 lb jars of whey protein and $3/gal gasoline. Incredible.

Been on TRT for 7 Months. Getting Ready to Try 4 Weeks of Dbol

Let’s say you achieve what you wish for? Best possible, genetic 1 ppb case: Another very successful chap from development perspective: How would you rate their functional fitness? Now what? As you get older, you have to consider how any additional weight (muscle or fat) will...

forums.t-nation.com

I am humbled by your comments @readalot! Having the genes is one thing but so few have the work ethics and will. I always said as a football coach, being an athlete is not for everyone.

Hey, I am thinking of a guy I know in the DFW area, Branch Warren. Very talented pro bodybuilder. He lives on his ranch outside of Ft. Worth, Texas and most of the meat he eats year round come from hunting. He raises almost every things else he and his family eats. This seems to be a lost art in many parts of the country. If our economy collapsed tomorrow, how many will survive? Survival of the fittest. Fortunately I grew up in the country.

You know, before the 10lb jars of whey protein, there were 16oz T-bones, milk and eggs. Only farmers had any use for whey and it was to feed the pigs. The curds they skimmed off use to make cheese. Protein has gone up so much in the past 20 years it is unbelievable. Lucky, now we have plant based protein and can't eat much of that because we have to pay $3 for gas, except California.

My wife always asks me what we will do if the economy totally collapses......I just smile and tell her its the neighbors need to worry.

 

[tareload]

From an evolutionary biology perspective, females are wired to select the strongest man, which would ensure the best protection, care and ultimately survival.

Careful with the concepts of strength vs fitness.

Evolutionary fitness - Understanding Evolution

Evolutionary biologists use the word fitness to describe how good a particular genotype is at leaving offspring in the next generation relative to other genotypes. So if brown beetles consistently leave more offspring than green beetles because of their color, you'd say that the brown beetles...

evolution.berkeley.edu

Good points on sexual dimorphism.

Sexual dimorphism in human arm power and force: implications for sexual selection on fighting ability

Highlighted Article: Sexual dimorphism in arm cranking power in humans suggests that sexual selection has occurred on males using the fist as a weapon.

journals.biologists.com

And when push comes to shove...

Selection for rape or selection for sexual opportunism? | Behavioral and Brain Sciences | Cambridge Core

Selection for rape or selection for sexual opportunism? - Volume 15 Issue 2

www.cambridge.org

Brutal world right below the surface of your local Costco, would just take a few weeks with no supply chain.

 

[andrewBwinter]

Hey it is the real athletes like you that give everyone else that glimmer of hope they can be like that. The dream doesn't die @BigTex. But as you remind me only a few are the chosen and have the combination of genes, work ethic and will.

On a lighter note can you imagine trying to keep a FFMI of 28 or 30 in a wild, raw survival situation?

Reminds me of this post. BB would be in for a world of hurt coming off cycle and off that 300+ g protein per day while scrounging for calories. Cardio, cardio, cardio.... we were all lucky to live in such abundant times and 10 lb jars of whey protein and $3/gal gasoline. Incredible.

Been on TRT for 7 Months. Getting Ready to Try 4 Weeks of Dbol

Let’s say you achieve what you wish for? Best possible, genetic 1 ppb case: Another very successful chap from development perspective: How would you rate their functional fitness? Now what? As you get older, you have to consider how any additional weight (muscle or fat) will...

forums.t-nation.com

So this is what I am getting at, "prescribed 100 mg a week of test cyp, my level went up to 329 so the dr. Bumped me up to 300mg a week"

This isn't TRT as was pointed out in the post, "it's a prescribed cycle"

Back to my original thought, is TRT being used as a term for a small cycle? I'm at 120 mg Test-E per week and have a stable trough around 850. All good.

 

[tareload]

So this is what I am getting at, "prescribed 100 mg a week of test cyp, my level went up to 329 so the dr. Bumped me up to 300mg a week"

This isn't TRT as was pointed out in the post, "it's a prescribed cycle"

Back to my original thought, is TRT being used as a term for a small cycle? I'm at 120 mg Test-E per week and have a stable trough around 850. All good.

...being used as a term to describe often running continuous dosing that resembles what was/has been used historically as test cycle (8-12 weeks) dosing.

Sure.

200 mg+/week Test ester, other goodies, etc. 400-500 mg+ per week AAS and call it TRT/HRT/TOT/pFRT/..., etc.


Testing 329 (? ng/dl) trough at 100 mg/week test cyp would ~2.5%tile response depending on injection frequency. Quite atypical.

Tool to Assess your TT Dose Response -- Percentile Curves

I ran 360mg/week split 3x per week, TT was 2041ng/dL, however SHBG was single digits from a bit of Var. Not sure if that info is useful for your graphs or not. Here you can see how the oxandrolone skewed your place percentile wise on the graph by lowering your SHBG. Thanks for clarifying the...

forums.t-nation.com

 

[BigTex]

Careful with the concepts of strength vs fitness.

Evolutionary fitness - Understanding Evolution

Evolutionary biologists use the word fitness to describe how good a particular genotype is at leaving offspring in the next generation relative to other genotypes. So if brown beetles consistently leave more offspring than green beetles because of their color, you'd say that the brown beetles...

evolution.berkeley.edu

Maybe the term ALPHA MALE would have been more appropriate. Now there a term fememists hate. Right up there with toxic masculinity.

 

[tareload]

You know, before the 10lb jars of whey protein, there were 16oz T-bones, milk and eggs

Hey I am with you hence that other pic I shot your way. Serious price raising going on with the whey protein powder. Now 15 to 20 bucks per pound for some isolate. 6 bucks a pound for London broil. Whole cut up chicken still 9 or 10 bucks. Sardines are 2 bucks a can and I eat so much yellowfin tuna in olive oil I am probably a walking mercury experiment.

Goodbye anabolic coffee** in the morning.


Anabolic coffee**

10 oz coffee
1 tbsp almond butter
1 tbsp cacao or 1 small square 100% chocolate
A little dash of Fairlife milk or heavy cream
1 scoop Whey protein (30 g protein)
Immersion blend
Another 10 oz coffee on top
Stir and enjoy.

Having a couple of those with eggs in the morning was so fun. Oh well hard times require hard men.

Was a good run.

 

[tareload]

Maybe the term ALPHA MALE would have been more appropriate. Now there a term fememists hate. Right up there with toxic masculinity.

What if you are FTM and then become ALPHA male? What does the Chair of Women's Studies Dept do with that?

Is that toxic?