Is there any evidence that HCG on cycle makes PCT easier?

[GuyWhoBenchesInSquatRack]

Hi all on this amazing forum,

I know this is mostly a TRT forum, but I know y’all are knowledgeable about this subject which is why I’m asking here. I’m coming toward the end of my 500mg test + 250 sust per week cycle and have been pinning 500iu HCG EOD throughout (plus .5 mg anastrozole per week to keep E2 around 15). Yes, it’s kept my nuts volleyball sized, but I know that the second I stop the HCG and jump on clomid, my nuts are gonna shrink back down just like they would on cycle due to my borderline-zero LH level. Lots of people say that HCG is a must on cycle which is why I’ve done it this time, but I struggle to understand why. If the primary purpose of PCT is to get LH back to normal, how can HCG help this cause? Also what is the point of doing HCG during PCT if it’s supressive of LH?

 

[Vince Carter]

We only limited get in to PCT, being a TRT and a mens health forum we don't get in to cycles/AAS/PCT, you would do well to ask those questions on other forums though that are geared for that (no pun intended).

 

[testiculus]

I don't have any experience with cycles, but this applies for TRT restarts as well as cycles. It is important to remember that relatively small amounts of circulating exogenous testosterone will suppress pituitary production of LH. If stopping testosterone, one would want to continue with HCG until the exogenous testosterone has dropped to levels that are no longer suppressive. For someone on 100 mg/week TRT this may take 3 or 4 half lives. Assuming a 5 day half life for testosterone cypionate, this would mean continuing HCG for 2 to 3 weeks after stopping testosterone for someone on TRT. For a cycle, where doses are much higher, it may take 6 or 7 or more half lives for exogenous testosterone levels to drop to a point where they are no longer suppressive. Once you stop the HCG it should clear within 3 or 4 days at which point in time it will possible for the pituitary to restart LH production. Whether the pituitary will then produce adequate levels of LH will be dependent upon age, duration of suppression, and other unknown individual factors.

 

[slicktop]

Lots of people say that HCG is a must on cycle which is why I’ve done it this time, but I struggle to understand why.

There's differing opinions on this since different men tolerate HCG differently (that's a lot of differences, isn't it?), but my personal thought, and there's plenty of docs that back this up, is that it's better to never shut down your own production than it is to try and restart it later. HCG during TRT (or otherwise) keeps your boys working so they don't have to try and restart, they just keep working. Plus, you get the benefit of more free testosterone, the stuff you're making, if you take HCG. For us TRT guys, lets say we start TRT at a total T level of 250. We start TRT with HCG and test total T three months later and come in at 1000. In theory, because of the HCG, 250 of that is still your own, while the other 750 comes from the exogenous source. That's an oversimplification of course, but that's the best I can do.

Also: love your screen name. I do too, and refuse to apologize for it. I lift by myself and go to failure on my last set, so y'all can wait your GD turn.

 

[GuyWhoBenchesInSquatRack]

I don't have any experience with cycles, but this applies for TRT restarts as well as cycles. It is important to remember that relatively small amounts of circulating exogenous testosterone will suppress pituitary production of LH. If stopping testosterone, one would want to continue with HCG until the exogenous testosterone has dropped to levels that are no longer suppressive. For someone on 100 mg/week TRT this may take 3 or 4 half lives. Assuming a 5 day half life for testosterone cypionate, this would mean continuing HCG for 2 to 3 weeks after stopping testosterone for someone on TRT. For a cycle, where doses are much higher, it may take 6 or 7 or more half lives for exogenous testosterone levels to drop to a point where they are no longer suppressive. Once you stop the HCG it should clear within 3 or 4 days at which point in time it will possible for the pituitary to restart LH production. Whether the pituitary will then produce adequate levels of LH will be dependent upon age, duration of suppression, and other unknown individual factors.

Thank you, that’s very helpful. I hadn’t considered that trace amounts of exogenous T will remain in the system so long.

 

[GuyWhoBenchesInSquatRack]

There's differing opinions on this since different men tolerate HCG differently (that's a lot of differences, isn't it?), but my personal thought, and there's plenty of docs that back this up, is that it's better to never shut down your own production than it is to try and restart it later. HCG during TRT (or otherwise) keeps your boys working so they don't have to try and restart, they just keep working. Plus, you get the benefit of more free testosterone, the stuff you're making, if you take HCG. For us TRT guys, lets say we start TRT at a total T level of 250. We start TRT with HCG and test total T three months later and come in at 1000. In theory, because of the HCG, 250 of that is still your own, while the other 750 comes from the exogenous source. That's an oversimplification of course, but that's the best I can do.

Also: love your screen name. I do too, and refuse to apologize for it. I lift by myself and go to failure on my last set, so y'all can wait your GD turn.

Just that HCG has gotten so expensive... paying about $150/11,000 IU. I’m thinking that if it’ll kick my nuts to volleyball size in a couple weeks after being shut down for a few months, why do it the whole time when my nuts will be in the same place after 2 weeks of post-atrophy HCG compared to 12 weeks of on-cycle HCG?

Also fuq ya fellow squat rack bencher. Anyone who actually works out their legs can stand and watch me bust out 4 sets of 8x275 and admire my upper bod while me and my weak legs wobble to the drinking fountain lmao

 

[xqfq]

According to this presentation by a Polish physician who uses only HCG (monotherapy), men using HCG for 2+ years who stop using it see their testosterone levels drop by 50% and then return to baseline (or above baseline) about 100 days later:

(Relevant portion at 24:52)

In studies I've read for men on only exogenous testosterone, the time to return to baseline is significantly longer. There is also a quick drop to nearly 0 testosterone rather than 50%.

 

[slicktop]

Just that HCG has gotten so expensive... paying about $150/11,000 IU. I’m thinking that if it’ll kick my nuts to volleyball size in a couple weeks after being shut down for a few months, why do it the whole time when my nuts will be in the same place after 2 weeks of post-atrophy HCG compared to 12 weeks of on-cycle HCG?

To keep everything else working. Your testes are producing more than just testosterone, and not everything is fully understood on how all those feedback loops work. I just feel better knowing that I'm keeping things working as "normal" as possible, especially since it seems like we're always learning something new about hormones.

 

[GuyWhoBenchesInSquatRack]

According to this presentation by a Polish physician who uses only HCG (monotherapy), men using HCG for 2+ years who stop using it see their testosterone levels drop by 50% and then return to baseline (or above baseline) about 100 days later:

(Relevant portion at 24:52)

In studies I've read for men on only exogenous testosterone, the time to return to baseline is significantly longer. There is also a quick drop to nearly 0 testosterone rather than 50%.

Sounds like reason enough to me to use it throughout. Thanks man great info!

 

[Nelson Vergel]

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[Nelson Vergel]

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