I think I'm going to come off trt

[RickB]

I have had exogenous T in my system for months, and have had high total and high free for two months straight, and the only thing different in my life is that I'm eating way too much.

Admittedly I have not been good about sticking to a protocol. However, while I understand that stabilizing blood levels is important, I find it hard to believe that total-T steadily between 1000 and 1350, and free-T steadily between 20 and 30, would not give me even the slightest, occasional, temporary positive symptom in two months.

If trt really is as exact a science as needing to wait 6-8 weeks every time one makes even the slightest change to his dosage, frequency, method, or auxiliary meds, I just don't have the patience to wait while I just eat more and more.

I was high-normal SHBG, low-normal free when I started my journey, and looking back I'm wondering if those two negatives might actually be the reason why it was so easy for me pre-trt to keep my eating in check. Since I have gotten nothing of benefit from trt sex-wise, energy-wise, body-wise, or mood-wise, I'd rather have high SHBG, low free, and go back to eating like a pigeon and be thin.

This wasn't supposed to be a rant. It was more of me just thinking out loud and coming to a conclusion.

 

[madman]

I have had exogenous T in my system for months, and have had high total and high free for two months straight, and the only thing different in my life is that I'm eating way too much.

Admittedly I have not been good about sticking to a protocol. However, while I understand that stabilizing blood levels is important, I find it hard to believe that total-T steadily between 1000 and 1350, and free-T steadily between 20 and 30, would not give me even the slightest, occasional, temporary positive symptom in two months.

I was high-normal SHBG, low-normal free when I started my journey, and looking back I'm wondering if those two negatives might actually be the reason why it was so easy for me pre-trt to keep my eating in check. Since I have gotten nothing of benefit from trt sex-wise, energy-wise, body-wise, or mood-wise, I'd rather have high SHBG, low free, and go back to eating like a pigeon and be thin.

This wasn't supposed to be a rant. It was more of me just thinking out loud and coming to a conclusion.

I have had exogenous T in my system for months, and have had high total and high free for two months straight, and the only thing different in my life is that I'm eating way too much.

Again as I have stated numerous times on the forum although TT is important to know FT is what truly matters as it is the active unbound fraction of testosterone responsible for the positive effects.

Do you even know where your trough FT level truly sits?

Unfortunately many are using/relying upon inaccurate assays.

The only way to know where your FT level truly sits is to have it tested using the most accurate assays such as the gold standard Equilibrium Dialysis or ultrafiltration (next best).

Looking over your previous posts it is clear that you are using/relying upon the piss poor direct immunoassay which is known to be inaccurate.


Admittedly I have not been good about sticking to a protocol. However, while I understand that stabilizing blood levels is important, I find it hard to believe that total-T steadily between 1000 and 1350, and free-T steadily between 20 and 30, would not give me even the slightest, occasional, temporary positive symptom in two months.

Looking over your previous threads you were overmedicated from the get-go you know that 200 mg T once-weekly protocol with the AI thrown in to boot to control the elevated e2 which is basically a given.

Let alone you eventually switched it up to 100 mg T every 4 days which would still be a fairly high dose of 175 mg T/week.

Have no clue how many different protocols (dose T/injection frequency) you have tried since hopping on trt let alone how many weeks you gave each protocol or where your trough FT level truly sat as it was most likely never even tested using the most accurate assays (ED/UF).

From some of your previous threads which are far and few, I would say that a majority of your protocols were high dose T/less frequent injections.

Hate to burst your bubble but if you have been running a trough TT 1000-1350 ng/dL once weekly let alone twice-weekly (every 3.5 days) then your trough FT is going to be way higher than 20-30ng/dL even if you had highish/high SHBG.

If one had highish/high SHBG and was running a trough TT 1000-1350 ng/dL then trough FT could be as high 30---> an absurd 46 ng/dL.

Even worse if one had lowish/low SHBG and was running a trough TT 1000-1350ng/dL then trough FT could be as high 38---> an absurd 53 ng/dL.

Peak TT, FT, and estradiol will be higher.

I would say 2 of your biggest issues are not sticking to a protocol and running too high a trough FT level.

Have no idea where your SHBG sits as of now but keep in mind that it is critical to know as it will have a significant impact on TT/FT let alone can dictate what injection frequency may suit you best.


I was high-normal SHBG, low-normal free when I started my journey, and looking back I'm wondering if those two negatives might actually be the reason why it was so easy for me pre-trt to keep my eating in check. Since I have gotten nothing of benefit from trt sex-wise, energy-wise, body-wise, or mood-wise, I'd rather have high SHBG, low free, and go back to eating like a pigeon and be thin.

You are most likely caught up on that more T is better mentality let alone a good chance that you have been following piss poor protocols (dose T/injection frequency).

You had a high-normal SHBG pre-trt.

You stated in a previous thread.....I got started on trt because I was the opposite. I had a high-normal total T, but high SHBG was binding it, causing low-normal free T. The first couple of blood tests on trt showed that my SHBG had gone down to the middle of the normal range, and I haven't had it tested since then.

You basically drove down your highish SHBG to the middle of the normal range and that is only the results from the first couple of blood tests since you have been on trt.

For all, we know you drove your SHBG down even further as you seem to be caught up on that more T is where its at mentality.



*Admittedly I have not been good about sticking to a protocol. However, while I understand that stabilizing blood levels is important, I find it hard to believe that total-T steadily between 1000 and 1350, and free-T steadily between 20 and 30, would not give me even the slightest, occasional, temporary positive symptom in two months.

Most men on trt are injecting 100-200mg T/week and even then many would never need the higher-end dose

Sure some do but it is far from common.

Most can easily achieve a healthy, high let alone absurdly high trough FT on 100-150 mg T/week when split twice weekly (every 3.5 days), M/W/F, EOD let alone daily.

FT 5-10ng/dL would be considered low.

FT 20-30ng/dL (high-end) is healthy.

Most men will do well FT 20-30 ng/dL.

Some may need/choose to run higher levels.

Comes down to the individual.

Unfortunately many are caught up on that more T is better mentality and even worse are jumping on trt blasting out the gate.....200 mg T/week.

Many end up struggling on such a dose sooner or later.

Start slow and go slow we say.

100-120mg T/week split twice-weekly (50-60 mg T every 3.5 days) is a good starting point.

T-only protocol as we want to see how the body reacts to testosterone and where the said protocol has trough TT, FT, and estradiol levels.

Many can end up feeling great running much lower FT levels than they think.

The use of hCG can be added eventually and in some cases, micro-doses of an AI may be needed by some.

Numerous approaches can be taken when it comes to manipulating the dose of T needed let alone injection frequency to manage estradiol without the use of an AI.

Every protocol needs to be given a fighting chance (12 weeks) let alone using accurate assays when testing is critical.

You have been on the forum long enough to know that when starting trt or tweaking a protocol (dose T) that it takes 4-6 weeks (using TC/TE) for blood levels to stabilize and it is common for many to experience ups/downs during the weeks leading up until blood levels have stabilized as the body is trying to adjust.

Even once blood levels have stabilized it will take time for the body to adapt to the new setpoint and this is the critical time period when one should gauge how they truly feel regarding relief/improvement of low-t symptoms and overall well-being.

How one truly feels during the first 6 weeks can be very misleading.

Many make the grave mistake of jumping the gun 6 weeks in upping their T dose if they do not feel well.

The dose of T should only be tweaked at the 6-week mark if one truly feels unwell because trough serum levels are still too low (highly doubtful) or in many cases too high (common).

You need to take a step back and rethink this.

Critical to know where your SHBG sits let alone use accurate assays when testing your FT.

Unfortunately, many of the same men struggling are running much high trough FT levels than they think.

 

[goolapsh]

I have had exogenous T in my system for months, and have had high total and high free for two months straight, and the only thing different in my life is that I'm eating way too much.

Admittedly I have not been good about sticking to a protocol. However, while I understand that stabilizing blood levels is important, I find it hard to believe that total-T steadily between 1000 and 1350, and free-T steadily between 20 and 30, would not give me even the slightest, occasional, temporary positive symptom in two months.

If trt really is as exact a science as needing to wait 6-8 weeks every time one makes even the slightest change to his dosage, frequency, method, or auxiliary meds, I just don't have the patience to wait while I just eat more and more.

I was high-normal SHBG, low-normal free when I started my journey, and looking back I'm wondering if those two negatives might actually be the reason why it was so easy for me pre-trt to keep my eating in check. Since I have gotten nothing of benefit from trt sex-wise, energy-wise, body-wise, or mood-wise, I'd rather have high SHBG, low free, and go back to eating like a pigeon and be thin.

This wasn't supposed to be a rant. It was more of me just thinking out loud and coming to a conclusion.

Before you give up on the shots try the scrotal cream. It’s highly underrated

 

[Vince]

I have had exogenous T in my system for months, and have had high total and high free for two months straight, and the only thing different in my life is that I'm eating way too much.

Admittedly I have not been good about sticking to a protocol. However, while I understand that stabilizing blood levels is important, I find it hard to believe that total-T steadily between 1000 and 1350, and free-T steadily between 20 and 30, would not give me even the slightest, occasional, temporary positive symptom in two months.

If trt really is as exact a science as needing to wait 6-8 weeks every time one makes even the slightest change to his dosage, frequency, method, or auxiliary meds, I just don't have the patience to wait while I just eat more and more.

I was high-normal SHBG, low-normal free when I started my journey, and looking back I'm wondering if those two negatives might actually be the reason why it was so easy for me pre-trt to keep my eating in check. Since I have gotten nothing of benefit from trt sex-wise, energy-wise, body-wise, or mood-wise, I'd rather have high SHBG, low free, and go back to eating like a pigeon and be thin.

This wasn't supposed to be a rant. It was more of me just thinking out loud and coming to a conclusion.

If trt is too tough for you or too many issues. I would stop now, and you should be able to go back to your levels in no time. Especially since it's only been a few months.

 

[RickB]

Thank you guys for the replies.

@goolapsh I looked into the cream a couple weeks ago. I don't have insurance, it's expensive, and since IM injections are the most tried and trusted way, I'd rather not spend the money on something that has a lower success rate. It was a good suggestion, and I appreciate it, but it just wouldn't be smart for me.

@Vince and @madman I'm going to cut down with the intention of weaning off, but I will do it at a slow enough pace to give a lower dosage half a chance. I'm going to pin 120 a week for 6 weeks with no AI. If I feel good at 6 weeks I will continue. If I feel nothing, or worse am still overeating, I'll get tested at that point using the best assays. If those tests show good numbers, I'll figure I'm chasing a white whale and wean off entirely. If the numbers are off, I will consider tweaking.

I'll have outdated-assay total, free, and E2 trough results within the next couple of days. I will post them for whatever they're worth. I hope that both of you at that point will give me further input as far as: how many days I should wait to pin the first 120, if 120 is a good number or if I should start at 100, and if I should pin once a week or twice a week.

Thank you for all the help thus far.

 

[MIP1950]

TRT isn't an 'exact' science. It's an art and though any doctor can prescribe testosterone, the ones who have in-depth knowledge have mostly taught themselves or were mentored. Doctors didn't learn any of this in medical school or in post grad training in their specialty. Some of the doctors who are first rate aren't endocrinologists or urologists. One is board certified emergency medicine and the other is an orthopedic surgeon.

I get the sense that you're self-treating and I don't judge. If you've got low T and no doctor to work with, you do what you feel is appropriate. Patience, as @madman advises. Testosterone is for the long haul and it could take a year or more to see results. I'm not saying that's an absolute. I've talked to many men on different sites, including here, who saw a good response in three to six months.

Lab numbers, even when they look good, don't reflect what's going on at the cellular level. As I said, not an exact science. Stay on one dose for three months or even longer. Just be chill, man. You're getting stressed about the specifics; once a week, twice a week...this dose, that dose... 100 mg, IM, once a week, okay? Just do it, religiously, and have a little faith, bro'. Maybe, when you least expect it, you'll start feeling and functioning better.

 

[Vince]

Thank you guys for the replies.

@goolapsh I looked into the cream a couple weeks ago. I don't have insurance, it's expensive, and since IM injections are the most tried and trusted way, I'd rather not spend the money on something that has a lower success rate. It was a good suggestion, and I appreciate it, but it just wouldn't be smart for me.

@Vince and @madman I'm going to cut down with the intention of weaning off, but I will do it at a slow enough pace to give a lower dosage half a chance. I'm going to pin 120 a week for 6 weeks with no AI. If I feel good at 6 weeks I will continue. If I feel nothing, or worse am still overeating, I'll get tested at that point using the best assays. If those tests show good numbers, I'll figure I'm chasing a white whale and wean off entirely. If the numbers are off, I will consider tweaking.

I'll have outdated-assay total, free, and E2 trough results within the next couple of days. I will post them for whatever they're worth. I hope that both of you at that point will give me further input as far as: how many days I should wait to pin the first 120, if 120 is a good number or if I should start at 100, and if I should pin once a week or twice a week.

Thank you for all the help thus far.

Not much help cutting down. I would just stop all together and start your recovery.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

I'm not familiar with your other threads but a few things...DHEA is at least as important as T for me. I'm not suggesting that is the case for you but it took me a lot of trial and error to determine that. Many fo us do better on much lower dosages, however it sounds like your issue may stem from something other than T. Nutrients, unresolved infections and environmental toxins are things to consider, as well as other hormones like thyroid.

 

[RickB]

These are "piss poor" assays, but I figure I should post them for whatever they're worth. This was 7 days after pinning a full 200mg, no AI taken in the preceding two weeks. Later that day I again pinned 200 and took 6.25mg of aromasin. So I figure next week's trough might be about the same but slightly lower E2.

.

 

[Vman]

Thank you guys for the replies.

@goolapsh I looked into the cream a couple weeks ago. I don't have insurance, it's expensive, and since IM injections are the most tried and trusted way, I'd rather not spend the money on something that has a lower success rate. It was a good suggestion, and I appreciate it, but it just wouldn't be smart for me.

I know cream is expensive, but you might really like it. I felt amazing on cream. Might be worth the $100/mo. if you end up feeling good on cream.

Also, on cream, the T doesn't stay in your system for 6 weeks like it does on injections. It's gone in 12ish hours. This makes it much easier to adjust your dosage. Still takes 6 weeks for your body to balance out, but the T levels can be adjusted instantly. This is one big advantage that cream has over injections.

 

[RickB]

Fourteen days since my last shot. Seven days since the results I posted above (1061, 17.9, 33.6). My levels are now pitiful, yet I feel no different than I did two weeks ago. Actually I might even feel better, as my hunger is not as intense, but I admit that might have to do with external factors; it's hard to say.

 

[Systemlord]

I don't understand why you are testing your levels after 14 days of stopping your injections, because the exogenous T isn't out of your system as of yet.

Also two months on TRT is nothing, it takes several months to see dramatic changes.

Onset of effects of testosterone treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved

Testosterone has a spectrum of effects on the male organism. This review attempts to determine, from published studies, the time-course of the effects induced by testosterone replacement therapy from their first manifestation until maximum effects are ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[RickB]

I don't understand why you are testing your levels after 14 days of stopping your injections, because the exogenous T isn't out of your system as of yet.

Also two months on TRT is nothing, it takes several months to see dramatic changes.

Onset of effects of testosterone treatment and time span until maximum effects are achieved

Testosterone has a spectrum of effects on the male organism. This review attempts to determine, from published studies, the time-course of the effects induced by testosterone replacement therapy from their first manifestation until maximum effects are ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I'd been at steadily high blood levels for two months, but I'd been on trt for several months. I know it's not out of my system yet. Nor is it out of the system of men who get one shot every two weeks and go on a roller coaster. There is no roller-coaster for me. I feel absolutely the same.

I know that it's necessary to be on a protocol for x-weeks to truly gauge the results. However the claim that I need x-weeks to feel even the slightest, most-temporary benefit is nonsensical. It is especially hard to believe when I consider how many people have spoken of the honeymoon phase. Some are no doubt feeling the placebo effect early on, but many are not. I haven't felt anything.

 

[MIP1950]

I'd been at steadily high blood levels for two months, but I'd been on trt for several months. I know it's not out of my system yet. Nor is it out of the system of men who get one shot every two weeks and go on a roller coaster. There is no roller-coaster for me. I feel absolutely the same.

I know that it's necessary to be on a protocol for x-weeks to truly gauge the results. However the claim that I need x-weeks to feel even the slightest, most-temporary benefit is nonsensical. It is especially hard to believe when I consider how many people have spoken of the honeymoon phase. Some are no doubt feeling the placebo effect early on, but many are not. I haven't felt anything.

Two years, three years. I even read of a case where it took five years for everything to turn around. Unusual cases? Maybe so. What I'm understanding is that for some men, it's akin to a slow healing/restorative process.

 

[RickB]

Two years, three years. I even read of a case where it took five years for everything to turn around. Unusual cases? Maybe so. What I'm understanding is that for some men, it's akin to a slow healing/restorative process.

It's been almost a year since I started, but I stopped and started a couple times and didn't stick to protocols for long. All that considered, from now going forward I would probably give it another year (an honest year of sticking to protocols and getting the best assays) IF I wasn't eating so much. I'm not sure the overeating is related to the exongenous T, but it does seem like it might be.

Combine the overeating with the fact that my pre-trt numbers weren't bad at all, and there's definitely more reason to stop than to continue at this point. I'm not swearing it off forever. I'll definitely be back on it when my levels absolutely call for it. And next time around, I'm going to start at 100 a week and give it 8+ weeks before I even think of getting a blood test or tweaking my protocol.

 

[MIP1950]

It's been almost a year since I started, but I stopped and started a couple times and didn't stick to protocols for long. All that considered, from now going forward I would probably give it another year (an honest year of sticking to protocols and getting the best assays) IF I wasn't eating so much. I'm not sure the overeating is related to the exongenous T, but it does seem like it might be.

Combine the overeating with the fact that my pre-trt numbers weren't bad at all, and there's definitely more reason to stop than to continue at this point. I'm not swearing it off forever. I'll definitely be back on it when my levels absolutely call for it. And next time around, I'm going to start at 100 a week and give it 8+ weeks before I even think of getting a blood test or tweaking my protocol.

I don't know if exogenous T is responsible for an increased appetite unless it's upregulating your metabolism and your body is asking for more calories. Generally, from my reading, men lose weight;some, substantial amounts. I've stopped trying to micromanage my T protocol. Now it's one injection a week, 100 mg, and I'll do labs in 2022 and meet with my urologist. I am experiencing more nocturnal erections, some great and some half staff. Lost a few pounds, too. Been on this protocol for 6 weeks. So much of my life is a mess due to untreatable bipolar illness. I want to keep my T protocol simple, almost mindless. One and done until the next week and be patient.