Heart Attack Today: Need Studies to Show Testosterone is Safe

[DragonBits]

Too much exercise can kill you if you're a white man | Daily Mail Online
https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(17)30577-3/fulltext

That was a weird study / unexpected conclusion.

Of course they don't prove it was the exercise that increased CAC, but that 3 times the recommended level of exercise was associated with a higher CAC score.

If could be something else these white gym rats were doing that caused a higher CAC score. Maybe supplements they are taking, or lack of alcohol in their diet causing lower HDL or something else?

Or maybe it's just an unexpected result of too much exercise.

But in a similar vein, I always thought something like marathon running suppressed the immune system, but then I now see this update.

Marathon running — and other endurance exercise — does not suppress immune system, researchers say

https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(17)30577-3/fulltext

 

[Tommy Wall]

Everything that one overdo can be risky. I have read in the swedish newspaper about guy after a hard workout specially guy over 50 had just drop down on the floor. I think the older ones get the more you need to rest between workouts unless you´re super fit and been training for may years. More is not always better besides $ lol

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

Very glad to hear you are still with us Moose!

Now, regarding actions, in my study of this topic so far, stents are not a fix but just buy time to implement a fix. Your conditioning may well have saved you but you will want to do it in a way that does not generate overtraining or other forms of over-activation of the sympathetic nervous system. A quick list of ideas to start with:

- Get your fasting insulin as low as possible, preferably around 3
- Get a Heart Rate Variabilty monitor and make sure your stress levels are trending downward. Read up on the parasympathetic vs sympathetic nervous system and its relation to heart disease and heart attacks.
- Read Dr. Kendrick's "What Causes Heart Disease" series and act on his recommendations (for example he stresses that prednisone is a very strong promoter of CVD)
- Strongly consider Dr. Davis's protocol, particularly fish oil, and the no-rise-in-blood sugar approach
- You will need to become a student of all-things CVD health and cardiologists are unlikely to be of much help
- Investigate vitamin K2 supplementation as well as all the fundamentals of nutrition like getting enough magnesium and ensuring you do not have excess iron
- Eliminate common sources of inflammation, particularly all things wheat and whey.
- Ensure your sleep is high-quality

There are lots of other things also, but things like this are likely to be the heavy hitters and are almost never stressed by the medical mainstream.

Regarding TRT, I would turn the question around and say How can the impacts of Low T possibly be of cardio benefit? Specifically lower energy levels and desire to train, mood disruption,sexual function, etc.

Ok, best of luck.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Great suggestions so far!

My partner had an MI due to blockage in the "widow maker". He lost a lot of ejection fraction but after 4 years of eating healthy, staying on TRT and low dose statin, and exercising his ejection fraction is now normal.

I would also supplement with 400 mg per day of Coenzyme Q-10.

Peter Langsjoen, MD discusses why we should take Coenzyme Q10

Keep your hematocrit under 54 and stay on TRT doses under 200 mg/week since higher doses can decrease HDL cholesterol.

 

[Systemlord]

Great suggestions so far!

My partner had an MI due to blockage in the "widow maker". He lost a lot of ejection fraction but after 4 years of eating healthy, staying on TRT and low dose statin, and exercising his ejection fraction is now normal.

I would also supplement with 400 mg per day of Coenzyme Q-10.

Peter Langsjoen, MD discusses why we should take Coenzyme Q10

Keep your hematocrit under 54 and stay on TRT doses under 200 mg/week since higher doses can decrease HDL cholesterol.

I've been taking 200mg daily of Coenzyme Q-10, will increase to 400mg daily.

Thanks Nelson!

 

[Vtail]

I've been taking 200mg daily of Coenzyme Q-10, will increase to 400mg daily.

Thanks Nelson!

The typical COQ-10 is fat soluble, so its best taken with a meal or a fish oil capsule. I started taking it after my doc prescribed Lipitor about 10 years ago. The Lipitor gave me unbearable backache's, so bad that I had to stop taking it. Then I stumbled upon an article about COQ-10 and how it should be taken by anyone on Statins. For me, it virtually eliminated the backache/cramping caused by the Lipitor.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

From my friend Lee Meyers (who passed away a year ago in an accident).

Testosterone Therapy Cardiovascular Studies
Within just a few months (Oct 2013 to Jan 2014) testosterone therapy appeared to be on the ropes with two back-to-back studies showing increased cardiovascular risk for men on TRT. [1][2] These studies were controversial and widely criticized in the TRT community, however. And one of the reasons is that, in general, testosterone therapy has done very well in the research, and so this was quite a shock. In my opinion, Dr. Morgentaler did an incredible job of showing the issues with these studies in two papers. Below is a quick recap by Dr. Morgentaler of the key problems:

"However, methodological flaws and data errors invalidate both studies as credible evidence of risk. One showed reduced adverse events by half in T-treated men but reversed this result using an unproven statistical approach. The authors subsequently acknowledged serious data errors including nearly 10% contamination of the dataset by women. The second study mistakenly used the rate of T prescriptions written by healthcare providers to men with recent myocardial infarction (MI) as a proxy for the naturally occurring rate of MI. Numerous studies suggest T is beneficial, including decreased mortality in association with TTh..." [6]

Although one of our posters pointed out that Dr. Morgentaler has disclosed considerable financial ties to the testosterone manufacturers, Dr. Morgentaler's position seemed completely vindicated by two ensuing major studies showing that testosterone therapy actually IMPROVES cardiovascular risk. [3] So, oddly enough, 2014 and 2015 proved to be very good years for male TRT after all. Because these studies are much less well-known, I go into some details with them below:

1. Senior Men Receiving Injections. This study found that "older men who were treated with intramuscular testosterone did not appear to have an increased risk of MI [heart attack]. For men with high MI risk, testosterone use was modestly protective against MI." [4] Injections, in particular, have been criticized - more on that below - as posing some additional cardiovascular risk but notice that testosterone actually lowered the risk of a heart attack in those who need it most.

2. NORMALIZATION Greatly Improves Risk of Heart Attack, Stroke, and Mortality. This recent study in The European Heart Journal pointed out that the major component missing from the two negative CVD studies were normalization of testosterone levels, i.e. proof that the patients actually had their testosterone boosted significantly. The authors of this study used a VERY large set of 83,000+ veterans data and found results that were so positive it has silenced virtually all TRT critics from what I have seen: [6]

a) A 47% reduction in all-cause mortality!

b) An 18% reduction in heart attacks

c) A 30% reduction in strokes.

These are incredible numbers and, as I often point out, it is no wonder considering that testosterone lowers insulin levels and improves insulin sensitivity, something that is a major issue for most 45+ men in modern societies. Again, just because a man goes on TRT does not necessarily mean that anyone has proven that his testosterone has normalized. He may not have been complaining and some delivery systems just do not work in some circumstances.

 

[DragonBits]

fyi, I Had been taking Costo / Kirkland brand CoQ10 300 mg for maybe the last 9 months. For about 5 months I had been taking 1000 mg Metformin, which can deplete CoQ10 levels.

LEF has a blood test sale ($44) so I just recently tested my CoQ10 level. Wanted to see if this brand was effective.

My serum level increased from 1.39 >2.19 ug/ml, range 0.37-2.20 ug/ml. So for me this works, I try and take this along with some others with a meal, but not always.

 

[mooseman109]

Update: Got results from echocardiogram today. So ejection fraction is basically a number that represents amount of blood flow out of heart. 55-60%. I am now at 50%. There is a section on back of left ventricle, the main pump out to body, that is not pumping as hard as areas around it. The good news is that it is moving so the muscle is not dead. They say it is likely stunned and should return to normal but if not I will likely not notice. There are two other areas that have plaque build up. Not bad but need to be aware. Also not in instant death areas.
I go home tomorrow, Thursday. Will go to cardiac rehabilitation next week.
I will go into work Friday for a bit. I am told to expect to get tired quickly for the next few weeks while the heart muscle repairs itself and heals. Just the procedures alone can make you sore.
Thanks for prayer
What the devil has meant for my destruction has mad me angry spiritually!!!

 

[broker]

Good to see you are ok.. some questions..
Are you on blood pressure meds or a statin?
How are your triglycerides?
Are you overweight at all?
Is high cholesterol in your family?

 

[mooseman109]

Hey Broker,
I have never been on any meds. Triglycerides are below 100, sometimes in 70’s. Not overweight.
My dad had several heart attacks in his 50’s! Boom right. He was an alcoholic over weight and ate horribly. I alway assumed that was the reason for his cvd, but maybe not. No other history in family.

 

[mooseman109]

From my friend Lee Meyers (who passed away a year ago in an accident).

Testosterone Therapy Cardiovascular Studies
Within just a few months (Oct 2013 to Jan 2014) testosterone therapy appeared to be on the ropes with two back-to-back studies showing increased cardiovascular risk for men on TRT. [1][2] These studies were controversial and widely criticized in the TRT community, however. And one of the reasons is that, in general, testosterone therapy has done very well in the research, and so this was quite a shock. In my opinion, Dr. Morgentaler did an incredible job of showing the issues with these studies in two papers. Below is a quick recap by Dr. Morgentaler of the key problems:

"However, methodological flaws and data errors invalidate both studies as credible evidence of risk. One showed reduced adverse events by half in T-treated men but reversed this result using an unproven statistical approach. The authors subsequently acknowledged serious data errors including nearly 10% contamination of the dataset by women. The second study mistakenly used the rate of T prescriptions written by healthcare providers to men with recent myocardial infarction (MI) as a proxy for the naturally occurring rate of MI. Numerous studies suggest T is beneficial, including decreased mortality in association with TTh..." [6]

Although one of our posters pointed out that Dr. Morgentaler has disclosed considerable financial ties to the testosterone manufacturers, Dr. Morgentaler's position seemed completely vindicated by two ensuing major studies showing that testosterone therapy actually IMPROVES cardiovascular risk. [3] So, oddly enough, 2014 and 2015 proved to be very good years for male TRT after all. Because these studies are much less well-known, I go into some details with them below:

1. Senior Men Receiving Injections. This study found that "older men who were treated with intramuscular testosterone did not appear to have an increased risk of MI [heart attack]. For men with high MI risk, testosterone use was modestly protective against MI." [4] Injections, in particular, have been criticized - more on that below - as posing some additional cardiovascular risk but notice that testosterone actually lowered the risk of a heart attack in those who need it most.

2. NORMALIZATION Greatly Improves Risk of Heart Attack, Stroke, and Mortality. This recent study in The European Heart Journal pointed out that the major component missing from the two negative CVD studies were normalization of testosterone levels, i.e. proof that the patients actually had their testosterone boosted significantly. The authors of this study used a VERY large set of 83,000+ veterans data and found results that were so positive it has silenced virtually all TRT critics from what I have seen: [6]

a) A 47% reduction in all-cause mortality!

b) An 18% reduction in heart attacks

c) A 30% reduction in strokes.

These are incredible numbers and, as I often point out, it is no wonder considering that testosterone lowers insulin levels and improves insulin sensitivity, something that is a major issue for most 45+ men in modern societies. Again, just because a man goes on TRT does not necessarily mean that anyone has proven that his testosterone has normalized. He may not have been complaining and some delivery systems just do not work in some circumstances.

Thanks Nelson!

 

[mooseman109]

Very glad to hear you are still with us Moose!

Now, regarding actions, in my study of this topic so far, stents are not a fix but just buy time to implement a fix. Your conditioning may well have saved you but you will want to do it in a way that does not generate overtraining or other forms of over-activation of the sympathetic nervous system. A quick list of ideas to start with:

- Get your fasting insulin as low as possible, preferably around 3
- Get a Heart Rate Variabilty monitor and make sure your stress levels are trending downward. Read up on the parasympathetic vs sympathetic nervous system and its relation to heart disease and heart attacks.
- Read Dr. Kendrick's "What Causes Heart Disease" series and act on his recommendations (for example he stresses that prednisone is a very strong promoter of CVD)
- Strongly consider Dr. Davis's protocol, particularly fish oil, and the no-rise-in-blood sugar approach
- You will need to become a student of all-things CVD health and cardiologists are unlikely to be of much help
- Investigate vitamin K2 supplementation as well as all the fundamentals of nutrition like getting enough magnesium and ensuring you do not have excess iron
- Eliminate common sources of inflammation, particularly all things wheat and whey.
- Ensure your sleep is high-quality

There are lots of other things also, but things like this are likely to be the heavy hitters and are almost never stressed by the medical mainstream.

Regarding TRT, I would turn the question around and say How can the impacts of Low T possibly be of cardio benefit? Specifically lower energy levels and desire to train, mood disruption,sexual function, etc.

Ok, best of luck.

GbV, awesome info there! I will begin research there, thank you!

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Here is a good comparison of the different types of testosterone blood tests and panels:

Types of Testosterone Blood Tests- How to Chose Best One?

 

[NL77]

Unfortunately some are just genetically predisposed to this. Just because you take X doesn’t mean it caused Y. How many people have MI a day that are not on TRT and fit as a fiddle.......a lot. Unfortunately in our society everyone needs to find a blame for something Sometimes things just happen. Glad you are ok. Hang in there

 

[DragonBits]

Unfortunately some are just genetically predisposed to this. Just because you take X doesn’t mean it caused Y. How many people have MI a day that are not on TRT and fit as a fiddle.......a lot. Unfortunately in our society everyone needs to find a blame for something Sometimes things just happen. Glad you are ok. Hang in there

I think when people hear of someone of a similar age that has a sudden health problem, like a heart attack, we look for reasons that happened. Because we want to think it's not going to happen to us because we have some protocol that avoids this problem or we can take an action that avoids it. Like we exercise a lot, or our lipids are better, something we can do to avoid this problem.

Sometimes shit just happens, there aren't a lot of good reasons.

 

[Tommy Wall]

There are going be a huge study about the fact that maybe 10% that had a heart attack had clean arteries and were in good condition. The specialist in this field admit that they really don’t know why. There a theory that it might have to with ones micro blood arteries/vessels that can run out of oxygen. I believe that the study will involve more countries like Sweden, Canada etc,,,

 

[Vince]

Too much exercise can kill you if you're a white man | Daily Mail Online
https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196(17)30577-3/fulltext

Are you saying all white men are lazy.

 

[Guided_by_Voices]

There are going be a huge study about the fact that maybe 10% that had a heart attack had clean arteries and were in good condition. The specialist in this field admit that they really don’t know why. There a theory that it might have to with ones micro blood arteries/vessels that can run out of oxygen. I believe that the study will involve more countries like Sweden, Canada etc,,,

Those interested in this topic can review the writings of Dr. Thomas Cowen who lays out a theory on exactly this point and also provides a lot of additional detail. His theory (as I remember it) revolves around a combination of imbalance between the parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous systems (too much chronic stress) and nutrient imbalances, if I remember correctly. Dr. Kendrick also discusses this and emphasizes the role of chronic stress. That is the focus of his most recent posts. As they both point out, there is already quite a lot of evidence for this mechanism.

 

[Tommy Wall]

Are you saying all white men are lazy.

Vince I’m only referring to an article I’m not the writer.