Going to give No HCG a go.

[Pringle]

I know this is one of the most divided topics in TRT, where many opinions and theories abound. I have been on HCG for two years mostly because of the “refilling the pathways” theory. I have never felt anything positive from it. I also supplement preg and DHEA at the request of my doc. My nuts shrunk about 1/4 from baseline without it and returned to normal with it. I stopped taking it two weeks ago and left all components of protocol the same. I have Dropped 6 pounds of water weight in one week! Going to run this 8 week and evaluate how I feel and labs. Tired of trying to manage E2 with it. We’ll see how it goes.

 

[Vince]

I know this is one of the most divided topics in TRT, where many opinions and theories abound. I have been on HCG for two years mostly because of the “refilling the pathways” theory. I have never felt anything positive from it. I also supplement preg and DHEA at the request of my doc. My nuts shrunk about 1/4 from baseline without it and returned to normal with it. I stopped taking it two weeks ago and left all components of protocol the same. I have Dropped 6 pounds of water weight in one week! Going to run this 8 week and evaluate how I feel and labs. Tired of trying to manage E2 with it. We’ll see how it goes.

I think you made the right decision. Many members of Excelmale just can't use HCG. Too many issues with estrogen. Then there's also members like me, who really enjoyed HCG. It's definitely not for everyone.

 

[Pringle]

I gave it two years and currently feel that I need to take some time off it and evaluate. I may try again at some point in the future, as I have seen that over time, some have come back to it with good results.

 

[DixieWrecked]

I have been on the fence about this too. I know that I am retaining some water and my erections are not as strong as they should be. I am very lean and my body is built with very little fat but I can tell there is some water retention. I would love to hear more feedback so thank you for reporting what your experience was. i would love to hear from more people.

Over on another forum people are having success by dropping the HCG and increasing their T dose. Really has me thinking.

 

[Pringle]

It is early on and we will see how it goes longer term. I left my T dose the same, for now, to establish a new baseline and see how I respond and feel. The good thing is HCG is simple to add back if warranted. I will post back my experience and labs when I get 8 weeks or so in.

 

[Westin]

I think you made the right decision. Many members of Excelmale just can't use HCG. Too many issues with estrogen. Then there's also members like me, who really enjoyed HCG. It's definitely not for everyone.

Vince- I’m on TC at 120mg weekly. My doc also added 375 iu HCG weekly and I feel fine with it. Question; there are a lot of posts on various boards that are militant about no AI, that the body will adjust e2 levels naturally on it’s own... fine. What about after adding the HCG? Thoughts/opinions? Thanks.

 

[Cataceous]

... Question; there are a lot of posts on various boards that are militant about no AI, that the body will adjust e2 levels naturally on it’s own... fine. What about after adding the HCG? Thoughts/opinions? Thanks.

One problem with this school of thought is that a normal HPTA adjusts testosterone to achieve the desired level of estradiol, so testosterone follows estradiol. Under TRT this feedback is defeated and estradiol is forced to follow testosterone instead. Based on how our bodies normally work it seems as though we should be adjusting our testosterone doses to attain the particular level of free estradiol that's right for us.

The addition of hCG can contribute to estrogen problems because it's somewhat unnatural compared to pulsatile LH delivery. HCG has a long half-life and is said to be several times stronger than LH on a per-IU basis. This combination leads to excessive intratesticular aromatization, almost certainly circumventing any attempts by the body to "adjust E2 levels naturally on its own".

 

[Westin]

One problem with this school of thought is that a normal HPTA adjusts testosterone to achieve the desired level of estradiol, so testosterone follows estradiol. Under TRT this feedback is defeated and estradiol is forced to follow testosterone instead. Based on how our bodies normally work it seems as though we should be adjusting our testosterone doses to attain the particular level of free estradiol that's right for us.

The addition of hCG can contribute to estrogen problems because it's somewhat unnatural compared to pulsatile LH delivery. HCG has a long half-life and is said to be several times stronger than LH on a per-IU basis. This combination leads to excessive intratesticular aromatization, almost certainly circumventing any attempts by the body to "adjust E2 levels naturally on its own".

So a tiny dose of adex (.25) once a week or twice wouldn’t completely out of line. I know I need to check labs again, I do regularly was 48, labcorp range <35. Much appreciated.

 

[Cataceous]

So a tiny dose of adex (.25) once a week or twice wouldn’t completely out of line. I know I need to check labs again, I do regularly was 48, labcorp range <35. Much appreciated.

Let's put it this way: the evidence for long-term harm from AI micro-dosing is no stronger than the evidence for long-term harm from high estradiol levels. In both cases there are flaws in the existing evidence. Anti-AI arguments focus on the damage done by high doses, which may be irrelevant when estradiol is maintained at normal physiological levels. There are studies showing higher estradiol is associated with bad things, but these might be based on immunoassay testing, potentially picking up bad associations with elevated C-reactive protein instead.

In fact there are valid concerns about each, but in my opinion there's not enough evidence to strongly favor one view over the other, and for now I don't hesitate to use small doses of anastrozole.

 

[Westin]

Your feedback is very much appreciated.

 

[Vince]

Vince- I’m on TC at 120mg weekly. My doc also added 375 iu HCG weekly and I feel fine with it. Question; there are a lot of posts on various boards that are militant about no AI, that the body will adjust e2 levels naturally on it’s own... fine. What about after adding the HCG? Thoughts/opinions? Thanks.

My thoughts are, try not to use an AI. But many Excelmale members need an AI.

 

[DixieWrecked]

It is early on and we will see how it goes longer term. I left my T dose the same, for now, to establish a new baseline and see how I respond and feel. The good thing is HCG is simple to add back if warranted. I will post back my experience and labs when I get 8 weeks or so in.

Any updates Pringle?

 

[Pringle]

Sitting at week 4 since discontinuing. The water weight loss stabilized at around 10lbs. Much less bloated and all my bacne is gone. Other than that I feel the same, which is pretty good.....libido good, workouts good, no ED, no atrophy pain or size loss. I will have labs done around the 20th of Feb and evaluate further.

 

[DixieWrecked]

Good to hear. I am happy for you that the future appears promising. You actually prompted me to do the same but I have only been off HCG for about a week.

 

[DixieWrecked]

So I have been off the hCG for a little over a week and I have noticed something. My skin is more oily. Does anyone know why this would be? I associate androgens with oily skin. Does hCG or the Estrogen it causes occupy the androgen receptor? I

 

[Gman86]

So I have been off the hCG for a little over a week and I have noticed something. My skin is more oily. Does anyone know why this would be? I associate androgens with oily skin. Does hCG or the Estrogen it causes occupy the androgen receptor? I

Just a shot in the dark, but progesterone opposes DHT, and HCG increases progesterone. DHT is known for making skin oily. So maybe the increased progesterone is inhibiting some of the effects of DHT? Again, just a shot in the dark

 

[DS3]

One problem with this school of thought is that a normal HPTA adjusts testosterone to achieve the desired level of estradiol, so testosterone follows estradiol. Under TRT this feedback is defeated and estradiol is forced to follow testosterone instead. Based on how our bodies normally work it seems as though we should be adjusting our testosterone doses to attain the particular level of free estradiol that's right for us.

The addition of hCG can contribute to estrogen problems because it's somewhat unnatural compared to pulsatile LH delivery. HCG has a long half-life and is said to be several times stronger than LH on a per-IU basis. This combination leads to excessive intratesticular aromatization, almost certainly circumventing any attempts by the body to "adjust E2 levels naturally on its own".

"Based on how our bodies normally work it seems as though we should be adjusting our testosterone doses to attain the particular level of free estradiol that's right for us."

Well said.

 

[DS3]

Just a shot in the dark, but progesterone opposes DHT, and HCG increases progesterone. DHT is known for making skin oily. So maybe the increased progesterone is inhibiting some of the effects of DHT? Again, just a shot in the dark

"...progesterone opposes DHT, and HCG increases progesterone."

Do you a link you can post to a study demonstrating this? Not trying to be a douche, just wanting to read for myself.

 

[Gman86]

"...progesterone opposes DHT, and HCG increases progesterone."

Do you a link you can post to a study demonstrating this? Not trying to be a douche, just wanting to read for myself.

Haha I know ur not trying to be a douche. I don’t have any studies saved on either subject. HCG increasing progesterone I dont need studies to prove. I have plenty of blood work showing that HCG raises progesterone levels. For me, at least, it is very dependent on which brand of HCG I’m using though.

Progesterone opposing DHT is just something I’ve heard repeated by people much smarter than me. Not 100% sure if it’s true or not.

 

[DS3]

Haha I know ur not trying to be a douche. I don’t have any studies saved on either subject. HCG increasing progesterone I dont need studies to prove. I have plenty of blood work showing that HCG raises progesterone levels. For me, at least, it is very dependent on which brand of HCG I’m using though.

Progesterone opposing DHT is just something I’ve heard repeated by people much smarter than me. Not 100% sure if it’s true or not.

Understood. Thanks man.