Getting off TRT by Using Enclomiphene

[Cataceous]

... I checked enclomiphene in Wikipedia today and strangely the article says Enclomiphene was discontinued for any uses April 2021.

I think this just means that Repros Therapeutics gave up on trying to get enclomiphene approved for anything.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Like @Cataceous said, Repros was sent back to the drawing board. I think they ran out of money.

Repros says FDA seeks more studies for clomiphene drug

Repros is developing Androxal® , a single isomer of clomiphene citrate and is an orally active proprietary small molecule compound. Repros Therapeutics Inc said the U.S. health regulator sought additional studies of its testosterone replacement drug, Androxal, and recommended that a safety...

www.excelmale.com

 

[Arcane]

Still chasing the restart, I see. I don’t blame you. I don’t have any personal experience with enclomiphene, but I am also curious. I imagine that it would be like any restart. It would soften the landing, but the minute you stop the medication you would experience all the symptoms of low t. After being on testosterone for several years, I think my chance of recovery is zero. Supplementing with testosterone for several years makes hypogonadism permanent and more acute. At least, that has been my experience. I have a restart a solid year, and the best I could do is 109. Practically a eunuch at that point. Unless they come up with a cure that is certain, I’ll stay on test. Being extremely hypogonadal for a year was no joke. It took a toll on my physical and mental health. If you decide to jump on enclomiphene, I hope you keep a journal for us.

so are you permanently infertile? Clomid wouldnt even get your sperm count up temporarily?

 

[This Perfect Day]

Generally this is a no-go because testosterone has a direct suppressive effect at the hypothalamus; enclomiphene stops suppression by estrogens only.


Clomid should be viewed as enclomiphene plus estrogen. Naturally it's more likely to cause side effects than enclomiphene alone.


As you know, my experimentation supports this proposition. Although we're unlikely to see clinical trials anytime soon, if ever, I'm hopeful that there will be additional anecdotal evidence in the near future.

I too am on TRT and take Enclomiphene 25mg 2x per week (only because HCG is so hard to find now) with my x2 T shots. I take .25 mg arimidex the following day(s) and this protocol keeps me feeling great, no sides, test is high- 1100 total but I’m ok with this- and my estrogen/free t/etc. is all looking great and this is 6 months (2 blood work) in so far so good!

 

[hombre]

I too am on TRT and take Enclomiphene 25mg 2x per week (only because HCG is so hard to find now) with my x2 T shots. I take .25 mg arimidex the following day(s) and this protocol keeps me feeling great, no sides, test is high- 1100 total but I’m ok with this- and my estrogen/free t/etc. is all looking great and this is 6 months (2 blood work) in so far so good!

I took enclo 12.5mg the other night and went to labcorp in the morning (while on TRT t-cyp). LH and FSH - crickets. You are sure you're not just wasting money on enclo?

When not on TRT, the daily enclo 25mg would make my LH and FSH sky high.

 

[This Perfect Day]

I took enclo 12.5mg the other night and went to labcorp in the morning (while on TRT t-cyp). LH and FSH - crickets. You are sure you're not just wasting money on enclo?

Well my blood work and the fullness of my testicles tell me it’s working for me. I also take 25mg the same day I inject T, and then taking the arimidex 24 hours after (because the T hasn’t started working and raising my estrogen until around 24hrs.) I took clomid/HCG/T about 10 months about to get my wife pregnant and that worked too but the clomid made me SUPER moody! The enclo doesn’t do that to me. But at the end of the day- what works for me won’t work for everybody-we’re all different as far as what works best.

 

[This Perfect Day]

Well my blood work and the fullness of my testicles tell me it’s working for me. I also take 25mg the same day I inject T, and then taking the arimidex 24 hours after (because the T hasn’t started working and raising my estrogen until around 24hrs.) I took clomid/HCG/T about 10 months about to get my wife pregnant and that worked too but the clomid made me SUPER moody! The enclo doesn’t do that to me. But at the end of the day- what works for me won’t work for everybody-we’re all different as far as what works best.

 

[hombre]

It's good if it works. Maybe I should have tried with 25mg, my hope was I would get some LH/FSH raised overnight for the blood test.

After some research a couple months ago my understanding was that enclo alone for me won't be able to raise me above 500 total testosterone, and if t-cyp gets me past that than my pituitary won't produce any LH/FSH.

That's was based on some theories or actual research(?) that hypothalamus not only "detects" levels of estrogen but also levels of testosterone, which when raised endogenously (above certain level, like 500 in my case) would shut down HPTA even when taking enclo to take care of estrogen's impact on hypothalamus.

ps. I have a call with dr. Saya in two weeks where I'd discuss this. Not sure if he suggests TRT + enclo these days. It seemed like so based on their mass email a few months ago. A month on TRT and my testicles started shrinking already. Been on enclo for 9 months before that. But enclo monotherapy was nothing to be write home about.

 

[This Perfect Day]

So if you have PRIMARY hypogonadism then enclo/clomid won’t work for you. I’m not a doctor so hopefully a more qualified and educated person can explain this better but from my R&D it appears that enclo will only increase LH/FH/T IF you only have SECONDARY hypogonadism. I believe HCG will still work for people with primary tho. I might be wrong?

 

[This Perfect Day]

It's good if it works. Maybe I should have tried with 25mg, my hope was I would get some LH/FSH raised overnight for the blood test.

After some research a couple months ago my understanding was that enclo alone for me won't be able to raise me above 500 total testosterone, and if t-cyp gets me past that than my pituitary won't produce any LH/FSH.

That's was based on some theories or actual research(?) that hypothalamus not only "detects" levels of estrogen but also levels of testosterone, which when raised endogenously (above certain level, like 500 in my case) would shut down HPTA even when taking enclo to take care of estrogen's impact on hypothalamus .

What I was reciting to you and sharing was based on research. Yes the hypothalamus detects levels of our estrogen and testosterone but enclomiphene blocks the receptors in your brain from realizing that it has enough estrogen so your brain thinks it needs to make more testosterone until it gets to a point that it gets aromatized into estrogen. Did that make sense?

 

[This Perfect Day]

I took enclo 12.5mg the other night and went to labcorp in the morning (while on TRT t-cyp). LH and FSH - crickets. You are sure you're not just wasting money on enclo?

When not on TRT, the daily enclo 25mg would make my LH and FSH sky high.

I don’t take the enclo 25 mg daily, I take it 2x week with my T shot

 

[hombre]

What I was reciting to you and sharing was based on research. Yes the hypothalamus detects levels of our estrogen and testosterone but enclomiphene blocks the receptors in your brain from realizing that it has enough estrogen so your brain thinks it needs to make more testosterone until it gets to a point that it gets aromatized into estrogen. Did that make sense?

that was the issue, it only blocks estrogen receptors, not both estrogen and testosterone ones. When the hypothalamus sees high testosterone levels due to endogenous test it stops the signaling to a pituitary gland. Sort of blocking of only estrogen receptors is not enough. So far my experiment confirms that (I expected some but not zero LH/FSH, unless enclo only works for a few hours and stopped working by the time I woke up / visited labcorp, but it shouldn't since it has a decent half-life, I believe 10 hours).

monotherapy daily 25mg enclo brings my TT to 500, and LH/FSH to something crazy like 14 or 25. Based on that dr. Saya recommended to drop to 12.5mg three times a week. Unfortunately I didn't measure what that protocol was bringing my TT and FT to. After stopping any enclo (monotherapy) for a week my TT dropped to 250. I'm now on 28mg TIW test cyp which is probably ridiculously low dose but still better than monotherapy enclo.

 

[Cataceous]

... When the hypothalamus sees high testosterone levels due to endogenous test it stops the signaling to a pituitary gland. Sort of blocking of only estrogen receptors is not enough. ...

More technically: "Kisspeptin neurons express the estrogen receptor and the androgen receptor, and these cells are direct targets for the action of gonadal steroids in both male and female animals. Kisspeptin signaling in the brain has been implicated in mediating the negative feedback action of sex steroids on gonadotropin secretion..."[R]

... So far my experiment confirms that (I expected some but not zero LH/FSH, unless enclo only works for a few hours and stopped working by the time I woke up / visited labcorp, but it shouldn't since it has a decent half-life, I believe 10 hours). ...

A problem with your experiment is the short time frame. If the pituitary has been shut down for some time then there may be a lag before production of the gonadotropins resumes. In my case it took about a month to see appreciable LH and FSH. I was directly stimulating the pituitary with GnRH, while blocking negative feedback from estradiol with enclomiphene.

... I'm now on 28mg TIW test cyp which is probably ridiculously low dose but still better than monotherapy enclo.

That's an average of 8.4 mg of testosterone per day, well over the 6-7 mg produced by the typical young man. The overall normal production range is about 3-9 mg. Nothing low about your dose.

...
ps. I have a call with dr. Saya in two weeks where I'd discuss this. Not sure if he suggests TRT + enclo these days. It seemed like so based on their mass email a few months ago. ...

Apparently they are letting a few guys try enclomiphene with TRT to see if any achieve HPTA activity. It was Dr. Saya who had reported seeing no significant HPTA function in several guys who came to him taking Clomid with their TRT.

Well my blood work and the fullness of my testicles tell me it’s working for me. ...

You need an LH measurement to see if you actually have HPTA function.