For those who are struggling on TRT

[Willyt]

I to am down to 60mg from a 100mg.
As some may know from earlier post I tried sub q 3 x a week several months back.
Felt horrible so I went off T for 6 to 8 weeks I guess.
Started back 3 weeks ago IM 20mg 3 x a week for 60mg.
So far I feel great.
Good mood, some morning wood after a 4:00 am pee.
So I'll take it until my nuts draw up again and then come back off as I normally do.
At 63 it is getting harder to come off but for me it's necessary.

I experience less nut shrinkage with low dose. Still happens at 50mg per week for me but not as bad as when I was doing 100 - 120mg per week.

 

[Smokin Joe]

It's inevitable but slower is better!

 

[equel]

Good post, so much bs on the forums starting out at minimum 150 or 200mg lol

 

[sh1973]

Good post, so much bs on the forums starting out at minimum 150 or 200mg lol

I agree and it's the top reason IMO that so many guys struggle and quit. I believe in replacing what we lost, not being 3-4 times what we ever were.

 

[MIP1950]

I agree and it's the top reason IMO that so many guys struggle and quit. I believe in replacing what we lost, not being 3-4 times what we ever were.

Maybe I missed it; free T on 52 mg, weekly? I'm sure not going to be critical. I'm one of those men whose tried every dosing protocol and have yet to find consistency. If it works and you feel/function good, that's all there is to say. Yet, IMO, men who do well on such a low dose are likely outliers, similar to those who need 200 mg or more per week. Even the experienced doctors usually start with 100 mg per week. Dr. Gordon, I believe, prescribes 70 mg per week.

Have my 100 mg(E5D) dose ready to go. I'll backfill another syringe with half of it. I'm not going to presume success(meaning, erections) but I owe it to myself to try.

 

[MIP1950]

Good post, so much bs on the forums starting out at minimum 150 or 200mg lol

You know @highpull, the physician on T-Nation forum. He starts his patients, I believe, at 100, but most end up at between 150 and 200 mg per week. @highpull injects 200 mg, weekly. He's talks straight; no BS. He was asked about starting men on 50 mg per week and he said, 'No'. But he's also open minded and conceded that there might be a few men who do better on less. TRT isn't exact and predictable. That's why many are still experimenting.

 

[sh1973]

Maybe I missed it; free T on 52 mg, weekly? I'm sure not going to be critical. I'm one of those men whose tried every dosing protocol and have yet to find consistency. If it works and you feel/function good, that's all there is to say. Yet, IMO, men who do well on such a low dose are likely outliers, similar to those who need 200 mg or more per week. Even the experienced doctors usually start with 100 mg per week. Dr. Gordon, I believe, prescribes 70 mg per week.

Have my 100 mg(E5D) dose ready to go. I'll backfill another syringe with half of it. I'm not going to presume success(meaning, erections) but I owe it to myself to try.

I honestly stopped measuring free t about three years ago because I found no benefit in doing so other than depleting my wallet lol. At 60 mg per week my trough Was normally around 600-650ng on day seven and I’m assuming I’m going to come in around 525-550 ng on this dose. This is still a very decent and normal testosterone level even for even a young guy. I’m not saying there are people who require large doses but I am saying it is absolutely positively not for me and I have tried everything. I can’t tell you on 60 mg per week the last time I checked free testosterone using the equilibrium dialysis method, it was in the 12 to 15 ng range and that seems to be where I feel the best. The thing is now I have no days during the week that feel any different and I’m being honest when I tell you, this is absolutely the most normal I have ever felt on TRT. Once I do labs in another couple weeks I will update the thread with my levels at that time.

 

[MIP1950]

I honestly stopped measuring free t about three years ago because I found no benefit in doing so other than depleting my wallet lol. At 60 mg per week my trough Was normally around 600-650ng on day seven and I’m assuming I’m going to come in around 525-550 ng on this dose. This is still a very decent and normal testosterone level even for even a young guy. I’m not saying there are people who require large doses but I am saying it is absolutely positively not for me and I have tried everything. I can’t tell you on 60 mg per week the last time I checked free testosterone using the equilibrium dialysis method, it was in the 12 to 15 ng range and that seems to be where I feel the best. The thing is now I have no days during the week that feel any different and I’m being honest when I tell you, this is absolutely the most normal I have ever felt on TRT. Once I do labs in another couple weeks I will update the thread with my levels at that time.

That's great! I know that numbers are just numbers. The real proof is always in how a man is feeling and functioning, irrespective of the dose and the labs. Several years ago did 30 mg, IM, daily. TT:1500 FT:500 DHT:75 E2: 60. In my head, super horny, but nothing going on below. And I gained 15 pounds. Felt bloated and uncomfortable. My urologist did prescribe anastrozole but I was listening to one particular men's health advocate who said forget about controlling E2. 'Let it rise' was the message. And, for some men, maybe so. Emotionally and sexually, those men supposedly did better by not managing E2. I guess it's possible that I needed E2 at 100 but I was too miserable to let it keep rising.

Let's see how 50 mg, weekly, works out for me.

 

[Fortunate]

I would also like to add that when I initially dropped from 100mg to 60mg it was 10-12 weeks before things actually clicked and everything fell into place. This could’ve been simply because I had myself so screwed up from overdosing for so long or it could’ve been merely the fact that the human body needs that long to adjust.

I, too, have been a struggler. Unfortunately, I have never quite found a sweet spot. Everything I do is either too little or too, but usually too much.

Do you mind detailing a little bit about what it was like on the front end of this trial? You indicated that it took 10 to 12 weeks to reach where you are now. What types of trials and tribulations did you have early on? Along those lines, I assume that whatever issues you had subsided slowly over time?

I generally agree with your conclusion that less can be more for many guys.

 

[sh1973]

I, too, have been a struggler. Unfortunately, I have never quite found a sweet spot. Everything I do is either too little or too, but usually too much.

Do you mind detailing a little bit about what it was like on the front end of this trial? You indicated that it took 10 to 12 weeks to reach where you are now. What types of trials and tribulations did you have early on? Along those lines, I assume that whatever issues you had subsided slowly over time?

I generally agree with your conclusion that less can be more for many guys.

Initially there were a few weeks of diminished energy and sorta in a fog. Erections starting returning very good including nocturnal erections at about 3 weeks in. At a month thinking, energy, libido, sleep and overall wellbeing starting improving and continued to slowly improve until nearly 3 months. I feel recently by dropping from 60mg to 52mg most things, especially libido have improved even more. Hope that helps and I think the duration of the improvements initially could have been due to just how screwed up my system was from years of using too much and trying everything under the sun.

 

[Willyt]

Maybe I missed it; free T on 52 mg, weekly? I'm sure not going to be critical. I'm one of those men whose tried every dosing protocol and have yet to find consistency. If it works and you feel/function good, that's all there is to say. Yet, IMO, men who do well on such a low dose are likely outliers, similar to those who need 200 mg or more per week.

Many guys never even consider low dose because the T clinics have conditioned us to think that anything less than 100mg per week is low despite fact that 52mg per week is in line with average physiological levels.

Thankfully there are bunch of guys on this forum like @sh1973 and @Cataceous and also on other forums (Emeric the bodybuilder) who challenged the status quo and started trying to replicate normal T endogenous production. My guess is that we will see more and more guys gravitating towards lower doses as the word spreads.

 

[Fortunate]

Many guys never even consider low dose because the T clinics have conditioned us to think that anything less than 100mg per week is low despite fact that 52mg per week is in line with average physiological levels.

Thankfully there are bunch of guys on this forum like @sh1973 and @Cataceous and also on other forums (Emeric the bodybuilder) who challenged the status quo and started trying to replicate normal T endogenous production. My guess is that we will see more and more guys gravitating towards lower doses as the word spreads.

I tend to agree. I was recently trialing low-dose daily injections and for me, even 10 mg was way too much. In retrospect, I think that’s a fairly high dose. I dropped down to 6 to 8 mg and that felt like too much as well. That said, it may have also been too early based on what I had been previously injecting.

Somehow, people tolerate supraphysiologic doses and levels. I appear not to be one of those guys. This is a great thread.

 

[Kotan]

I agree and it's the top reason IMO that so many guys struggle and quit. I believe in replacing what we lost, not being 3-4 times what we ever were.

I agree for 100%

 

[madman]

As many of you know, I have struggled over the years ever feeling well on TRT. I’ve had doses all the way from 200 mg per week down to 60 mg per week. I have now been on TRT 13 years and can honestly say I’ve pretty much tried it all. I have contemplated, and even attempted quitting a few times but felt too bad to follow through with it. For the first seven or eight years I thought having more testosterone was better and was told since I have high SHBG that I must use larger doses in order to feel well. As many of you know I dropped my weekly dose down to 60 mg per week 2 1/2 or three years ago I guess. At this point it was the best I felt ever being on TRT. Even with that my libido still wasn’t great but overall I felt fantastic. So nearly 7 weeks ago I dropped my dose down to 52 mg per week. I now feel completely normal in every single aspect including libido. I feel like I have wasted over 12 years listening to what I should do, instead of doing what’s right for me. I feel absolutely normal now and I feel exactly the way I did before ever needing TRT. I haven’t done labs yet and will most likely do so in another couple weeks. I would imagine just judging by my levels on 60 mg per week that my seven day trough level is going to be around 550–575 ng. The moral of the story is, I think a lot of men would be better served by substantially lowering their dose. I would not put this post on here if I if I didn’t feel passionate about it and thought it was a fleeting moment. Again I can tell you for absolute certain, that I feel fantastic finally, in every single aspect.

Glad to hear!

This is gold:

*I now feel completely normal in every single aspect including libido. I feel like I have wasted over 12 years listening to what I should do, instead of doing what’s right for me. I feel absolutely normal now and I feel exactly the way I did before ever needing TRT.




Unfortunately most caught up on that more T is better mentality will continue to struggle as they will always be searching for something that will never be there.

Many will refuse to settle for feeling NORMAL and be chasing that so-called OPTIMAL until the cows come home.

Never-ending merry-go-round.

You have people on the forums going on and on about so-called optimal let alone everything being in balance yet these same individuals are trying their damndest to micro-manage estradiol, DHT, prolactin, DHEA and the laundry list goes on yet when it comes to T are running levels well beyond what their body could ever produce endogenously let alone what level they were genetically at in their PRIME (late teens/the early 20s).

No male in his prime (late teens/the early 20s) was producing absurdly high peak or trough TT/FT levels let alone 24/7 (steady-state).

Top it all off that your HPGA is shut down and most are not replacing physiological levels of T they are FORCING levels upon THEMSELVES WELL BEYOND what one could endogenously ever produce.

Unfortunately too many want to be jacked up on T 24/7.

When it comes to building muscle high T levels steady-state is where it's at and there is no denying such.

The sad fact of the matter is many are brainwashed into thinking that more T is better.

For many years we have been stressing the point that many are overmedicated when it comes to testosterone therapy.

Too many caught up on that neanderthal mindset you know that more T is better mentality.

Unfortunately many are jacked up on T from the get-go let alone many are also dick riding that so-called OPTIMAL bulls**t!

Too many get caught up in expecting to feel great 24/7 once on trt as if testosterone is going to cure all that ails them.

So much misinformation spewed on the numerous forums/gootube.


*neanderthal mindset that more T is better

*HIGH T = raging libido/titanium erections

*HIGH T = OPTIMAL as in that fairytale everyone is chasing.....you know the one with raging libido/titanium erections 24/7, unlimited amounts of energy, stellar mood (Mr. Rogers neighborhood), packing on muscle like the hulk with the recovery abilities of wolverine




Never going to change especially when everyone keeps pushing the more T is better mentality on most of the other forums and it does not help when many are loaded with are beloved (LOL) blast n cruiserZZZ!

 

[sh1973]

Glad to hear!

This is gold:

*I now feel completely normal in every single aspect including libido. I feel like I have wasted over 12 years listening to what I should do, instead of doing what’s right for me. I feel absolutely normal now and I feel exactly the way I did before ever needing TRT.




Unfortunately most caught up on that more T is better mentality will continue to struggle as they will always be searching for something that will never be there.

Many will refuse to settle for feeling NORMAL and be chasing that so-called OPTIMAL until the cows come home.

Never-ending merry-go-round.

You have people on the forums going on and on about so-called optimal let alone everything being in balance yet these same individuals are trying their damndest to micro-manage estradiol/DHT/prolactin/DHEA and the laundry list goes on yet when it comes to T are running levels well beyond what their body could ever produce endogenously let alone what level they were genetically at in their PRIME (late teens/the early 20s).

No male in his prime (late teens/the early 20s) was producing absurdly high peak or trough TT/FT levels let alone 24/7 (steady-state).

Top it all off that your HPGA is shut down and most are not replacing physiological levels of T they are FORCING levels upon THEMSELVES WELL BEYOND what one could endogenously ever produce.

Unfortunately too many want to be jacked up on T 24/7.

When it comes to building muscle high T levels steady-state is where it's at and there is no denying such.

The sad fact of the matter is many are brainwashed into thinking that more T is better.

For many years we have been stressing the point that many are overmedicated when it comes to testosterone therapy.

Too many caught up on that neanderthal mindset you know that more T is better mentality.

Unfortunately many are jacked up on T from the get-go let alone many are also dick riding that so-called OPTIMAL bulls**t!

Too many get caught up in expecting to feel great 24/7 once on trt as if testosterone is going to cure all that ails them.

So much misinformation spewed on the numerous forums/gootube.


*neanderthal mindset that more T is better

*HIGH T = raging libido/titanium erections

*HIGH T = OPTIMAL as in that fairytale everyone is chasing.....you know the one with raging libido/titanium erections 24/7, unlimited amounts of energy, stellar mood (Mr. Rogers neighborhood), packing on muscle like the hulk with the recovery abilities of wolverine




Never going to change especially when everyone keeps pushing the more T is better mentality on most of the other forums and it does not help when many are loaded with are beloved (LOL) blast n cruiserZZZ!

I couldn't agree more with what you've said. I was told time after time after time by numerous folks and doctors that I must dose high because I have elevated shbg. I was told numerous times that 100mg was a small dose which is total BS! 100mg of cypionate had my 7 day trough over 1000ng so you can imagine what my peak was. I would venture to say 98% of men have never in their life had a t level of 1000ng.

 

[tareload]

. I would venture to say 98% of men have never in their life had a t level of 1000ng.

That is getting up there. Thanks for sharing your story. 2000 ng/dl TT peak and 1000-1200 ng/dl trough may work for some. More power to them.

I am glad you found what works for you.

 

[Anonymon]

I honestly stopped measuring free t about three years ago because I found no benefit in doing so other than depleting my wallet lol. At 60 mg per week my trough Was normally around 600-650ng on day seven and I’m assuming I’m going to come in around 525-550 ng on this dose. This is still a very decent and normal testosterone level even for even a young guy. I’m not saying there are people who require large doses but I am saying it is absolutely positively not for me and I have tried everything. I can’t tell you on 60 mg per week the last time I checked free testosterone using the equilibrium dialysis method, it was in the 12 to 15 ng range and that seems to be where I feel the best. The thing is now I have no days during the week that feel any different and I’m being honest when I tell you, this is absolutely the most normal I have ever felt on TRT. Once I do labs in another couple weeks I will update the thread with my levels at that time.

If your trough was in the 600’s at 60mg a week injected just the once, that is still a pretty good sign that bloodwork can be helpful as 600’s test is about average. Be interesting to know what your peak was. I’ve had my total t come back at 460 peak on 170mg a week injected daily.

 

[sh1973]

If your trough was in the 600’s at 60mg a week injected just the once, that is still a pretty good sign that bloodwork can be helpful as 600’s test is about average. Be interesting to know what your peak was. I’ve had my total t come back at 460 peak on 170mg a week injected daily.

Dang that’s not very high for for such a large dose.

 

[Anonymon]

Dang that’s not very high for for such a large dose.

Over the past year since playing with thyroid hormones, my TT’s gotten lower and lower on the same dose with the same free t. Was 1320 then 1000ish then 900 and then 460. SHBG has been the same throughout. Bloodwork’s weird.

 

[Misery]

I have been having a similar experience.

I have been lowering my dose from 200mg down to 98mg now over a years time. The big tell in my case is that I no longer need any AI. I didn't think I'd ever be able to say that. The biggest impact of lowering my dose is much better mental health.

Everything is better but Libido. I'm going to drop down to 70mg and see how things go.