First time using TRT and thinking about adjusting the dosage

[OMI100]

Yeah unfortunately I learned that the hard way... According to the link you posted and comments from other members, I crashed my E2 and need to let it recover. Kinda mad at the doctor, but I'm actually more mad at myself for trusting blindly and risking my health. I still have a brand new bottle of testosterone, and am thinking of taking much smaller doses 2-3x a week, like maybe 50mg twice or 35mg 3x. If anything, do you think using a modest testosterone regimen without using an AI could help replenish my e2 levels to where they need to be?

1. Get the books and read and educate yourself.
2. I am one of the few on this board that uses a daily compounded testosterone cream and I do quite well on it.
3. Others can comment on injection protocols as I have never done that.
4. Others can comment on crashing your E-2 and recovery time as I have not been down that road

 

[OMI100]

Some additional links to read before you recive the books you have already ordered
Go here:
http://www.allthingsmale.com/publications.html
and download:
TRT: Recipe For Success
and
HCG Update.
and the TRT Power Point presentation.
Dr. Crisler is one of the "TRT Cutting Edge DR's" here in the states....
Also go here:
http://www.drjohncrisler.com/the-cri...part-deux.html
and also print out the article.

 

[Roberto_G]

Orrin Israel thanks for the info. I think the picture is starting to come into focus a little better. I would consider T-Gel as an option but I've already committed to a test cyp plan financially, and the HCG paper was really helpful. I was originally prescribed 500IU HCG once a week, though his paper confirmed my idea that 250IU twice a week before 50mg testosterone shot is probably a good method

 

[JMP]

I'm with userjoe mostly as far as thinking that 200mg/wk is not ridiculously high. If you can do it and keep your blood work looking good than so be it, a personal decision. I also agree with madman that it's not necessary and 100-150 is more common. I'm on 150mg/wk and feel fantastic with a trough around 1000 give or take. Yes some people feel better at 6-800 but I feel great around 1000.

As far as the AI, I would not take what was prescribed. It seems excessive even with the 200mg dosage. Are they tablets? Can they be quartered? If you can quarter them then maybe start with .25 2x/wk or better yet none until you get labs and see how you feel once at steady state (around week 5-6).

 

[JMP]

BTW, HCG should be taken more than 1x per week (2-3, or Dr Crislers daily) Total weekly dosage around 500-1000iu.

 

[Vince]

We all know that gyno is the most evident/worst manifestation of high E2. But from what I've experienced personally and learned from others on diff forums, gradual increase of E2 in the body can have a wide range of symptoms, from very subtle to more pronounced.

Trying to compile a list here. Feel free to add your own experience.

- No morning wood/spontaneous erections
- Decreased erection quality/ED (not affecting libido that much, in my case)
- Penis hanging differently/less bood flow in its flaccid state/kind of "hollow", less full
- Worse sleep quality
- More frequent urination at night (enlarged prostate?)
- Negative outlook at life (for no apparent reason)
- Anxiety
- Mood swings
- Water retention/puffiness
- Very deep eye circles (related to sleep quality?)
- Sudden surge in acne
- Tiredness/lower energy levels even after 7-9 hours of sleep
- Sensitive nipples

Thanks!

- No morning wood/spontaneous erections. MAY BE

- Decreased erection quality/ED (not affecting libido that much, in my case). MAY BE
- Penis hanging differently/less bood flow in its flaccid state/kind of "hollow", less full . NOT REALLY
- Worse sleep quality.NOT REALLY UNLESS YOU HAVE NIGHT SWEATS
- More frequent urination at night (enlarged prostate?) NOT REALLY
- Negative outlook at life (for no apparent reason) NO ONE HAS PROVEN THIS AT ALL
- Anxiety NOT PROVEN
- Mood swings NOT PROVEN
- Water retention/puffiness MAY BE
- Very deep eye circles (related to sleep quality?) NOT AT ALL UNLESS YOU ARE NOT SLEEPING WELL
- Sudden surge in acne NOT AT ALL
- Tiredness/lower energy levels even after 7-9 hours of sleep. NOT AT ALL. SLEEP APNEA?
- Sensitive nipples MAY BE BUT TRT CAN CAUSE THIS. VERY DIFFERENT FROM ENLARGED MAMMARY GLAND.

​

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?5985-List-of-high-Estradiol-symptoms

 

[Blackhawk]

https://www.excelmale.com/forum/showthread.php?5985-List-of-high-Estradiol-symptoms​

​

Post #7 from the same thread:

- No morning wood/spontaneous erections. MAY BE
- Decreased erection quality/ED (not affecting libido that much, in my case). MAY BE
- Penis hanging differently/less bood flow in its flaccid state/kind of "hollow", less full . NOT REALLY
- Worse sleep quality.NOT REALLY UNLESS YOU HAVE NIGHT SWEATS
- More frequent urination at night (enlarged prostate?) NOT REALLY
- Negative outlook at life (for no apparent reason) NO ONE HAS PROVEN THIS AT ALL
- Anxiety NOT PROVEN
- Mood swings NOT PROVEN
- Water retention/puffiness MAY BE
- Very deep eye circles (related to sleep quality?) NOT AT ALL UNLESS YOU ARE NOT SLEEPING WELL
- Sudden surge in acne NOT AT ALL
- Tiredness/lower energy levels even after 7-9 hours of sleep. NOT AT ALL. SLEEP APNEA?
- Sensitive nipples MAY BE BUT TRT CAN CAUSE THIS. VERY DIFFERENT FROM ENLARGED MAMMARY GLAND.

I have seen all the above with high estrogen.

Plus:
DEPRESSION
Lack of Libido
Desire to buy shoes
Subscribing to Redbook Magazine
Watching Oprah

 

[Vince]

Desire to buy shoes
Subscribing to Redbook Magazine
Watching Oprah
LOL [SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]​

 

[OMI100]

One more suggestion is to click on the "VIDEOS" link at the top of thee page.
A LOT of videos on the above subject along with a LOT of other GREAT info....
You can watch them while you are waiting for the books to arrive

 

[Roberto_G]

Here is a copy of my blood lab report. I talked to my doctor about adjusting the protocol. The new one looks something like:
Day1: 100mg Testosterone
Day2: 0.5mg Anastrozole
Day3: -
Day4: 100mg Testosterone
Day5: 0.5mg Anastrozole
Day6: 1000mcg b12
Day7: 500iu HCG

But I'm also interested in what the group members think about this. The AI still seems kinda high, and I don't want to cause another crash. Should I lower both the testosterone and AI and gradually increment based on the effects? Unfortunately the lab results did not test for SHBG. Tomorrow would be the start of the new week

edit: so I removed the lab results for privacy reasons (Google and all that). But the in effect I got the perspective I needed, but TT was around 585 and the analysis didn't have shgb or proper estradiol anyways. Thanks everyone

 

[Blackhawk]

OK, date of blood work May 14, and you state in your first post May 24: "Hey everyone, glad to have found this forum. I recently injected my first IM dose of testosterone. "

So my assumption is these labs were prior to TRT. Yes?

So Same stuff that has already been discussed:


Correct initial basic tests prior to TRT: https://www.discountedlabs.com/pre-trt-male-hormone-wellness-panel

There is no indication that you need 200mg of T/week (Potentially don't need TRT at all)

No SHBG tested to base dosing frequency

No LH/FSH tested to determine Primary or secondary hypogonadism.

Roche ECLIA is THE WRONG ESTRADIOL TEST The correct test is LC/MS methodology.

There is no indication that you need the anastrazole

HCG once a week is ridiculous. Your levels will be low again in about 3 days.

Your doctor does not understand TRT.

 

[madman]

Here is a copy of my blood lab report. I talked to my doctor about adjusting the protocol. The new one looks something like:
Day1: 100mg Testosterone
Day2: 0.5mg Anastrozole
Day3: -
Day4: 100mg Testosterone
Day5: 0.5mg Anastrozole
Day6: 1000mcg b12
Day7: 500iu HCG

But I'm also interested in what the group members think about this. The AI still seems kinda high, and I don't want to cause another crash. Should I lower both the testosterone and AI and gradually increment based on the effects? Unfortunately the lab results did not test for SHBG. Tomorrow would be the start of the new week

I see now these are your pre-trt labs from 2 weeks ago.

Your total t/free t levels look descent but need to know your shbg.

Regarding the a.i. you need to get the e2 (sensitive assay) test to know where your estradiol truly sits.

Again if these are your pre-trt labs why are you considering trt with those natural testosterone levels?

The dose whether 200mg/week or 100mg every 3.5 days (which is more) than 200mg/week is too high a dose for starting trt and will result in testosterone levels well into the supra-physiological range along with sky high e2 in most cases.

 

[Roberto_G]

OK, date of blood work May 14, and you state in your first post May 24: "Hey everyone, glad to have found this forum. I recently injected my first IM dose of testosterone. "

So my assumption is these labs were prior to TRT. Yes?

So Same stuff that has already been discussed:


Correct initial basic tests prior to TRT: https://www.discountedlabs.com/pre-trt-male-hormone-wellness-panel

There is no indication that you need 200mg of T/week (Potentially don't need TRT at all)

No SHBG tested to base dosing frequency

No LH/FSH tested to determine Primary or secondary hypogonadism.

Roche ECLIA is THE WRONG ESTRADIOL TEST The correct test is LC/MS methodology.

There is no indication that you need the anastrazole

HCG once a week is ridiculous. Your levels will be low again in about 3 days.

Your doctor does not understand TRT.

Yes I should've clarified that, these are pre-TRT levels. I was using herbal boosters like tonkat ali and tribulus, pine pollen and some other extracts, but stop using those prior to the test. This is the dilemma I'm contemplating right now. The benefits of TRT are something I'd like to experience, though it is a commitment and I'm fairly young to start a full-time regimen like that. Primarily, I sought out TRT to alleviate symptoms like lack of motivation, decreased sex drive, and slower work-out recovery times / lesser gains. TT at around 580 seems like I would need a lower dose to stay in the upper physiological levels. I'll have to get my SHBG tested through the sites labs, and will look into the estradiol test probably after the first month to monitor the regimen. Thanks for your input though, I'm thinking about starting at 50mg twice a week, and no AI

 

[Roberto_G]

I see now these are your pre-trt labs from 2 weeks ago.

Your total t/free t levels look descent but need to know your shbg.

Regarding the a.i. you need to get the e2 (sensitive assay) test to know where your estradiol truly sits.

Again if these are your pre-trt labs why are you considering trt with those natural testosterone levels?

The dose whether 200mg/week or 100mg every 3.5 days (which is more) than 200mg/week is too high a dose for starting trt and will result in testosterone levels well into the supra-physiological range along with sky high e2 in most cases.

Yes they are pre TRT, and so do you think that TRT would be a bad option for me? I primarily am trying to gain more motivation, increased libido and improve workout effectiveness.

edit: I'd say it's clear my doctors protocol is wrong or from a total different school of thought on TRT, but seeing as how you all have collectively more experience and no financial interested vested in me, I'm glad to hear your opinions. Based on the responses and seeing my lab results myself, I'm thinking a minimal plan of 50mg 2x a week with no AI might be a good starting point.

 

[Blackhawk]

seems like I would need a lower dose to stay in the upper physiological levels.

I think the way you are thinking about may be misinformed. Testosterone is not a supplement that you add some to get a higher level. Taking T does not add to your total, it replaces it. When you take Testosterone It shuts down your body's natural production, so you end replacing your endogenous T with exogenous T.

Controlling the dose of exogenous (in your case injected) determines what your resulting T level will be. It has very little to do with your body producing T. You may produce a minimal amount with HCG stimulation, but primarily it ends up being based on how much your taking.

Man, you really need to read up... those links from Orrin etc.

 

[madman]

Yes they are pre TRT, and so do you think that TRT would be a bad option for me? I primarily am trying to gain more motivation, increased libido and improve workout effectiveness.

Definitely a bad idea with those levels.....I would be looking into thyroid/adrenals.

That would be ridiculous to shut down your natural endogenous production when your t levels are in the mid-normal range and were these tests done in a fasted state between 8-10am as if not your levels may very well be some what higher.

Highly doubtful shutting your natty endogenous levels (mid-normal) and starting trt using exogenous testosterone to try and get your levels in the high-normal physiological range will make a big difference in libido or gaining muscle in the gym.

How is your lifestyle.....sleep/diet/stress levels/exercise , as lack of sleep, poor diet, excess stress whether mental/physical (over training in the gym) combined with not enough recovery can all have a negative effect on ones libido/overall well being and lack of gaining muscle in the gym.

Sure having healthy testosterone levels whether naturally or for those needing trt can improve ones body composition (gains muscle/strength, loss of body fat) but ones diet/training protocol/recovery all play a strong role in results when gaining muscle or loosing excess body fat.

The body composition one would attain from using trt doses (mid-normal/high-normal) physiological levels are in no way comparable to the gains in muscle/strength that one would achieve using high doses of testosterone to achieve supra-physiological levels of testosterone.

I would think this through deeply and look into your thyroid/adrenal health as a dysfunction of either can cause negative issues regarding libido/energy and drive/recovery among many other issues.

 

[Roberto_G]

Alright well Madman and Blackhawk thanks for setting me straight. I think after experiencing that crash I realized the complexities involved and should probably just not trust this doctor as he doesn't seem to have my best interests in mind. I'm gonna return back to natural supplements for a while and try to improve my sleep patterns and lifestyle habits as suggested, and educate myself on TRT as a potential regimen maybe later on in life. And your right I definitely shouldn't commit to treatment and shut down my natural test until I have a better understanding and need for TRT. Kinda angry at the doctor for being willing to slam me with those doses, but that's life. Great community here and looking forward to learning more about improving health and performance from you all. Cheers

 

[madman]

Alright well Madman and Blackhawk thanks for setting me straight. I think after experiencing that crash I realized the complexities involved and should probably just not trust this doctor as he doesn't seem to have my best interests in mind. I'm gonna return back to natural supplements for a while and try to improve my sleep patterns and lifestyle habits as suggested, and educate myself on TRT as a potential regimen maybe later on in life. And your right I definitely shouldn't commit to treatment and shut down my natural test until I have a better understanding and need for TRT. Kinda angry at the doctor for being willing to slam me with those doses, but that's life. Great community here and looking forward to learning more about improving health and performance from you all. Cheers

Trt can be great for men that are truly in need and the right protocol will have a big impact on how effective it will be but do understand that it is no ride in the park.

When one commits to trt increases in estradiol are common and may require management whether from use of an aromatase inhibitor or dose/protocol change.

Increases in hemoglobin/hematocrit are a given and may need to be managed through frequent blood donations and there is also a strong chance of ending up with low ferritin/iron which also needs to be managed.

Higher doses of testosterone can have negative effects on lipids (lower hdl).

Shutdown of your HPTA and natural endogenous testosterone levels along with reduced sperm count and fertility issues, shrunken testicles and many men end up having to add hcg (human chorionic gonadotropin) to their protocol to improve these things.

These are some issues that you may have to deal with/address when using exogenous testosterone for trt.

Aromatase inhibitors/hcg use/blood donations are things which may be needed when on trt.

In your case with your levels I would do anything to avoid having to start.

 

[Montrealer]

Roberto, be extremely careful with AI. Please read this article before you take any anastrozole (btw, my clueless dr put me on 1mg daily!!!). One thing I learned on this forum is to educate yourself on TRT. Here's the article: https://news.yale.edu/2000/12/01/estrogen-deprivation-leads-death-dopamine-cells-brain

 

[Roberto_G]

Roberto, be extremely careful with AI. Please read this article before you take any anastrozole (btw, my clueless dr put me on 1mg daily!!!). One thing I learned on this forum is to educate yourself on TRT. Here's the article: https://news.yale.edu/2000/12/01/estrogen-deprivation-leads-death-dopamine-cells-brain

Indeed, 1mg is way too much for a single dose in my opinion. 1mg a day would probably send me into a meltdown. Thanks for the link! I've given TRT a lot of thought, and my modified protocol is bringing much better results so far. Just going to limit to .25mg or less AI, and read up on different methods to fine tune it to my liking.