Estrogen Question

[Indy57]

Does anybody know if Estrogen levels are higher prior to starting TRT? Say you were at 300 TT prior to starting and an E2 of 30. Is the E2 number affected at all due to TT being lower?

What I’m wondering is if the E2 at start is where the body naturally wants to be and if we should be targeting that number when starting TRT?

I’ve been on for 5 years but with the recent discussions here around no Ai and higher E2 I think we need more data before throwing out our ai. I have been at 28-35 for E2 for the last 14 months and feel a lot better than when I had my E2 over 90! ( 200mgT no ai at that time TT was 1355! ) I was a bloated mess when my E2 was higher.

I’m a little concerned that people are jumping on the no ai train so quickly- not to say it wrong- but I think it needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis and with data to support it!

Indy

 

[Vince]

E follows T. Higher testosterone levels will cause higher estrogen levels. Your body has more testosterone to convert into estrogen.

 

[Indy57]

I know- I’m just wondering if we should be controlling ( or maybe targeting) E2 To what it was before starting TRT. Raise TT while keeping E2 the same as when you start( 30 for me ) is this why daily injections work so well for some? Limiting aromatization and keeping T/E at constant levels.
I think it would be really interesting to see what people’s starting E2 was and how those people feel with higher T levels at the same E2 level that they started with( hope that makes sense )

Indy

 

[Vince]

My E2 was 7 before TRT.

 

[swoops36]

My e2 was very low before TRT, because my TT was at 300 and I was fairly lean. If you’re overweight, your starting e2 will prolly be higher and I would not want to use that as a target point.

 

[Gman86]

I know- I’m just wondering if we should be controlling ( or maybe targeting) E2 To what it was before starting TRT. Raise TT while keeping E2 the same as when you start( 30 for me ) is this why daily injections work so well for some? Limiting aromatization and keeping T/E at constant levels.
I think it would be really interesting to see what people’s starting E2 was and how those people feel with higher T levels at the same E2 level that they started with( hope that makes sense )

Indy

Trust me, I get exactly what you’re saying. I’ve wondered the same thing, and have mentioned it on other threads. Pre-TRT, total T for me was around high 500’s - high 600’s, and my E2 was usually around 20-25.

So I’ve also wondered if we should listen to our bodies, and try to keep E2 conversion similar to where it was prior to TRT. Notice I said E2 CONVERSION though. E2 does follow T, so as T goes up, so should E2. So say my pre-TRT total T was 600, and E2 was 20, which is basically what was going on in my case. So I divide 20 by 600, and I get a conversion of 0.033333333333333. Then I can multiply my new total T of 1200, by my old conversion rate of 0.033333333333333, which gives me 40. Which actually coincides with the other theory getting knocked around, where E2 might be best right around where you SHBG level is. My SHBG runs in the 40’s. My last labs had my SHBG at 45.

Hopefully that makes sense. So I totally see what you’re saying, but I think the hypothesis should be more based off of your set conversion rate, rather than just trying to get your E2 where it was pre TRT. Because if T is low and in an unhealthy range, E2 is usually going to be lower than it should be for you as well. But your original conversion rate is definitely something that could be a key to getting E2 dialed in, imo. Obviously factoring in obesity level as well. If you were more overweight pre-TRT, you were probably converting T into E2 at a higher rate than what is optimal for your body. So if you’ve lost weight since starting TRT, you might want to use your old conversion rate, and drop that number by a few points to factor in that you your conversion rate should be a little lower now.

 

[Gman86]

Does anybody know if Estrogen levels are higher prior to starting TRT? Say you were at 300 TT prior to starting and an E2 of 30. Is the E2 number affected at all due to TT being lower?

What I’m wondering is if the E2 at start is where the body naturally wants to be and if we should be targeting that number when starting TRT?

I’ve been on for 5 years but with the recent discussions here around no Ai and higher E2 I think we need more data before throwing out our ai. I have been at 28-35 for E2 for the last 14 months and feel a lot better than when I had my E2 over 90! ( 200mgT no ai at that time TT was 1355! ) I was a bloated mess when my E2 was higher.

I’m a little concerned that people are jumping on the no ai train so quickly- not to say it wrong- but I think it needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis and with data to support it!

Indy

What was your SHBG before TRT, and at currently?

 

[jhperez81]

What I would like to know is how much conversion gets blocked with anastrozole. Does .125mg anastrozole block 100% of T to E2? If not then will the higher the dose of anastrozole block a larger percentage? Currently at my weight I’m converting roughly.08 of my T to E2 which seems impossible to manage without an AI until I lose more weight.

 

[DragonBits]

Does anybody know if Estrogen levels are higher prior to starting TRT? Say you were at 300 TT prior to starting and an E2 of 30. Is the E2 number affected at all due to TT being lower?

What I’m wondering is if the E2 at start is where the body naturally wants to be and if we should be targeting that number when starting TRT?

I’ve been on for 5 years but with the recent discussions here around no Ai and higher E2 I think we need more data before throwing out our ai. I have been at 28-35 for E2 for the last 14 months and feel a lot better than when I had my E2 over 90! ( 200mgT no ai at that time TT was 1355! ) I was a bloated mess when my E2 was higher.

I’m a little concerned that people are jumping on the no ai train so quickly- not to say it wrong- but I think it needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis and with data to support it!

Indy

I think what you are posting makes no sense at all.

Before TRT my TT was between 340-390, I was 60 lbs over weight, or 30 lbs over weight, depending what year I tested. At 390 TT my E2 was lower than <5, so I had no idea how low. Before that E2 also measured below 5.

Even the conversion ratio isn't fixed.

By taking supplements, mainly it seems boron, I boosted both my FT and E2, then my E2 was 11 based on a TT of 348. IMO 11 is still too low.

I don't think your body has anyway of controlling E2, it controls TT which indirectly controls E2. SHBG can change, I am not sure it's obvious how to make it change to whatever level you want. You have a lot of control over TT.

BTW, a TT of 1355 isn't natural even for a young man, if natural is what you want.

 

[Indy57]

What was your SHBG before TRT, and at currently?

Not sure what it was before but I’m currently at 33 and have been pretty close to that number for the last year-

Indy

 

[Indy57]

I think what you are posting makes no sense at all.

Before TRT my TT was between 340-390, I was 60 lbs over weight, or 30 lbs over weight, depending what year I tested. At 390 TT my E2 was lower than <5, so I had no idea how low. Before that E2 also measured below 5.

Even the conversion ratio isn't fixed.

By taking supplements, mainly it seems boron, I boosted both my FT and E2, then my E2 was 11 based on a TT of 348. IMO 11 is still too low.

I don't think your body has anyway of controlling E2, it controls TT which indirectly controls E2. SHBG can change, I am not sure it's obvious how to make it change to whatever level you want. You have a lot of control over TT.

BTW, a TT of 1355 isn't natural even for a young man, if natural is what you want.

WOW! 5! That is crazy low! Just goes to show how different we all are- I was at 30 before starting. Kind of proves my point that we are all different and cannot say what is optimal for E2.

You are right 1355 is too high for me! That was at 200mg/week and no ai. I had a lot of high estrogen symptoms as well as terrible insomnia at that level. Felt wired at times too.

I went on 2mgs a week of Arimidex around this time . This brought my E2 down to 19. I reduced my dose ( eventually) to my current protocol of 40mg T and .25 ai EOD . I have been there for the last year and have multiple bloodwork data that has my TT between 830-870 E2 between 28-35and SHBG at 33

It’s only when I got my E2 closer to 30 that I started to see the effects we all want - any higher and I bloat gain, gain fat , etc

 

[Indy57]

Trust me, I get exactly what you’re saying. I’ve wondered the same thing, and have mentioned it on other threads. Pre-TRT, total T for me was around high 500’s - high 600’s, and my E2 was usually around 20-25.

So I’ve also wondered if we should listen to our bodies, and try to keep E2 conversion similar to where it was prior to TRT. Notice I said E2 CONVERSION though. E2 does follow T, so as T goes up, so should E2. So say my pre-TRT total T was 600, and E2 was 20, which is basically what was going on in my case. So I divide 20 by 600, and I get a conversion of 0.033333333333333. Then I can multiply my new total T of 1200, by my old conversion rate of 0.033333333333333, which gives me 40. Which actually coincides with the other theory getting knocked around, where E2 might be best right around where you SHBG level is. My SHBG runs in the 40’s. My last labs had my SHBG at 45.

Hopefully that makes sense. So I totally see what you’re saying, but I think the hypothesis should be more based off of your set conversion rate, rather than just trying to get your E2 where it was pre TRT. Because if T is low and in an unhealthy range, E2 is usually going to be lower than it should be for you as well. But your original conversion rate is definitely something that could be a key to getting E2 dialed in, imo. Obviously factoring in obesity level as well. If you were more overweight pre-TRT, you were probably converting T into E2 at a higher rate than what is optimal for your body. So if you’ve lost weight since starting TRT, you might want to use your old conversion rate, and drop that number by a few points to factor in that you your conversion rate should be a little lower now.

Makes sense but then I wonder if your conversion rate can change over time? During my honeymoon phase of TRT I could look at weights and gain muscle and lose fat- now it’s much more difficult.

 

[Indy57]

My E2 was 7 before TRT.

Where are you at currently?

 

[Gman86]

Not sure what it was before but I’m currently at 33 and have been pretty close to that number for the last year-

Indy

Ya so basically exactly where your E2 is. Maybe there really is something to this whole getting E2 to match your SHBG thing.

Do you feel dialed in, or are do you still not feel optimal?

 

[Gman86]

Makes sense but then I wonder if your conversion rate can change over time? During my honeymoon phase of TRT I could look at weights and gain muscle and lose fat- now it’s much more difficult.

Interesting. Have you ever let your E2 creep up a little bit. Obviously not to 90 again, but maybe into the 40’s? E2 can help a lot with muscle gain and fat loss, when in the right range, from my understanding. I can’t think of any other reason why muscle gain/ fat loss would of been better at the beginning, compared to now. Do you have any ideas as to why?

 

[Indy57]

Ya so basically exactly where your E2 is. Maybe there really is something to this whole getting E2 to match your SHBG thing.

Do you feel dialed in, or are do you still not feel optimal?

I feel pretty dialed in! My diet kind of went to hell over the holiday but my motivation to workout has been good. I think I’ll feel even better once I drop the 10 lbs or so I gained over the Holidays.

 

[Indy57]

Interesting. Have you ever let your E2 creep up a little bit. Obviously not to 90 again, but maybe into the 40’s? E2 can help a lot with muscle gain and fat loss, when in the right range, from my understanding. I can’t think of any other reason why muscle gain/ fat loss would of been better at the beginning, compared to now. Do you have any ideas as to why?

I have been over 40 a couple times before on my older protocol. Felt about the same from what I remember. I Think I might need to get better with my diet - I had it down to a science and may have gotten lazy

 

[Gman86]

I have been over 40 a couple times before on my older protocol. Felt about the same from what I remember. I Think I might need to get better with my diet - I had it down to a science and may have gotten lazy

So you think that diet is the reason why in the honeymoon phase you were able to put on muscle and keep off fat easier compared to now?

 

[Vince]

Where are you at currently?

29.5 no AI