DHT, DHT derivative steroids, and libido

[antelopers]

Probably less of interest to guys already taking large doses. The question is in the context of taking small doses concurrent with TRT to boost effective DHT, while keeping serum levels in what would be an equivalent physiological range. For some, testosterone cream to the scrotum is too much of an estradiol booster.

I thought t cream on the scrotum was supposed to help with estradiol control compared to other spots on the body. Are these guys exceptions?

 

[Gman86]

I thought t cream on the scrotum was supposed to help with estradiol control compared to other spots on the body. Are these guys exceptions?

Ya I’ve never heard this about scrotal application resulting in higher E2 conversion. The only thing I’ve heard about creams to the scrotum is that it increases DHT at a higher rate, and DHT opposes the symptoms of elevated E2.

 

[fifty]

Vince, I am just about to start cream and thought once a day was the "norm" for cream was "best" for once a day as it gives a close peak and drop to our normal T cycle?

I was told to do one click two times a day.

Good thing about cream is the half life is so short you should be able to experiment a little.

 

[Vince Carter]

Do you mind posting the results of that DHT test after being on the 2 clicks per day? And I assume you are applying each click to the scrotum?

let's see...I have to use it each day as I testing verified return to baseline at 24hrs post. 3hrs post application I can pull ~100 on a 16-79 scale. My untreated DHT is ~40 on that scale. I think that that's 25mg application. That was with my normal Cyp dose which might have been 16mg/Day but I could be wrong with what Cyp regimen I was using when those labs were pulled.

 

[Vince Carter]

Ya I’ve never heard this about scrotal application resulting in higher E2 conversion. The only thing I’ve heard about creams to the scrotum is that it increases DHT at a higher rate, and DHT opposes the symptoms of elevated E2.

I think Ive heard it similar, or DHT opposes Estrogen, has a stronger affinity at the receptor something like that.

 

[Cataceous]

I thought t cream on the scrotum was supposed to help with estradiol control compared to other spots on the body. Are these guys exceptions?

DHT does have anti-estrogen properties, both through mild aromatase inhibition and competitive inhibition of estradiol at receptors. However, scrotal testosterone cream does raise estradiol in some guys. If I'm remembering correctly, Dr. Saya has noted this. In addition, my highest recorded estradiol was when I added scrotal testosterone cream to my protocol; total testosterone was actually a little lower, so a T boost was not the reason. Other guys have reported similar effects.

 

[Joe Sixpack]

Do you use an ai? Just curious if you are having such good results with or without one. Thanks.

No need for AI. I don't aromatize very much and have to keep my T levels quite high in order to keep my sensitive E2 above 20.

 

[Joe Sixpack]

I also am starting t cream once my order comes in. Dr Nichols has the majority of his patients on twice per day dosing, including himself I believe. I think twice per day is the norm, but there’s at least one guy on here that said twice a day kept him up at night, and it all clicked when he went to once per day dosing. I plan on trying both.

Ideally to most closely approximate natural T diurnal cycles, we would use the cream once per day. But I have found that once a day is intolerable. The huge blast in the morning leaves me feeling very overmedicated. Then at night my joints would sometimes ache. Twice a day alleviates both of those side FX. It'll be interesting to see if you can tolerate once a day.

 

[Gman86]

Ideally to most closely approximate natural T diurnal cycles, we would use the cream once per day. But I have found that once a day is intolerable. The huge blast in the morning leaves me feeling very overmedicated. Then at night my joints would sometimes ache. Twice a day alleviates both of those side FX. It'll be interesting to see if you can tolerate once a day.

So I just joined the FB ground that the new TOT roundtable guys created, and just read through a bunch of threads pertaining to guys on creams. Turns out pretty much everyone is applying it twice per day. I’m sure they’re doing this for good reason. Dr Nichols stated on there that everyone is different, and some men may do well on once per day application, but almost everybody does best on twice per day. So not sure how much time I’m going to spend experimenting with the once per day application. Don’t get me wrong, I love experimenting more than anybody here, but I also want to feel optimized like yesterday. So we’ll see what happens. Empower should be overnighting the cream and my Ipamorelin in the next day or two.

 

[wondering]

Ideally to most closely approximate natural T diurnal cycles, we would use the cream once per day. But I have found that once a day is intolerable. The huge blast in the morning leaves me feeling very overmedicated. Then at night my joints would sometimes ache. Twice a day alleviates both of those side FX. It'll be interesting to see if you can tolerate once a day.

If only on T cream that may make sense. I will be trying a little T cream to supplement my T Cyp injection. Do you have MPB? If so, did it increase rate of loss?

 

[Joe Sixpack]

If only on T cream that may make sense. I will be trying a little T cream to supplement my T Cyp injection. Do you have MPB? If so, did it increase rate of loss?

I am on both cream and injections. I still can't tolerate using cream once a day. As for MPB, I do have a receding hairline but the top of my head is still covered in hair. Adding cypionate nor the cream made any difference in my hair.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Increasing DHT too much has the opposite effect on libido as DHT blocks the estrogen receptor needed for libido to be present. That is why oxandrolone and stanozolol, two DHT derivatives, tend to lower libido even in the presence of TRT background.

 

[wondering]

You need to test. But, maybe lowering the Test Cyp a bit as you introduce the cream is the answer.

 

[bochinit]

I have the ideia that Drostanolone with TRT is beneficial in some points like SHBG and libido, and you don't need to increase your Testosterone to obtain slight gains. Maybe I'll try when I have some again in my stook and give the feedback.

 

[Cataceous]

I have the ideia that Drostanolone with TRT is beneficial in some points like SHBG and libido, and you don't need to increase your Testosterone to obtain slight gains. Maybe I'll try when I have some again in my stook and give the feedback.

Will be interested in your report...

 

[eyeheartny]

I have the ideia that Drostanolone with TRT is beneficial in some points like SHBG and libido, and you don't need to increase your Testosterone to obtain slight gains. Maybe I'll try when I have some again in my stook and give the feedback.

Did you end up trying drostanolone? Curious what route you ended up going with this.

 

[bochinit]

Did you end up trying drostanolone? Curious what route you ended up going with this.

I have Masteron and Primo in stock but still a little afraid to use them because of hair loss.

 

[DS3]

A little background. I had a hardcore raging libido when I was younger, up to my early 20s. Quickly my erectile function deteriorated, followed by libido a few months later. I went for a blood test and my T was 300. I wanted TRT but my doc wouldn't prescribe it. So I turned to a friend at the gym who gave me testosterone. I cycled a few times, felt good while on, terrible when off. The one thing I noticed is that test really helped my libido at high doses with an AI, but I never once had erection or libido issues when using masteron, which is a DHT based steroid. It made me feel amazing.

Finally, I learned about telemedicine clinics, and wanted to do TRT the right way instead of damaging my health and flying blind. It's worked well for some things, but I never, ever felt that energy and sex drive or good erectile function like when I used something that boosted my DHT. It seems that no matter the dose, my body will not bring my DHT above 60. Now I know this is plenty for some guys, but I believe everyone has individual sensitivity, and that for me, this isn't enough to give me that boost I need.

I tried scrotal cream briefly, and I felt amazing for about a week, then estrogen symptoms skyrocketed and I had to stop. That was 25mg Scrotal per day with 120mg of test for the week.

What else can I do? Proviron isn't available as a prescription here, and I don't want to turn to buying masteron from some shady site to add to my TRT. I want to do this legally and avoid the headache. But I'm afraid that I'll never feel good again if I don't.

My experience with DHT derivatives is very similar to yours. On testosterone monotherapy, I feel like crap although my assays look good (numbers rarely tell the whole story...i.e. they don't tell the neurocognitive effect). On Test + HCG I feel better, but estrogenic symptoms (for me mainly migraines and brain fog as my E2 creeps up) become overwhelming. When I take low doses of Drostanolone (100-150 mg per week) along with TRT (200 mg Test and 1000 units HCG weekly), my mental clarity, libido, and energy are much higher. I have the same effects with Primobolan.

In fact, I have recently had it dealing with estrogen symptoms on TRT so I recently added 200 mg Primo per week to act as an estrogen antagonist. As expected, my E2 symptoms or have subsided and my erection quality is significantly improved. It's a shame that men who don't respond ideally to T don't have any other options besides nandrolone (which I dislike) and oxandrolone (which is not a long-term solution).

It's funny because a sizeable portion of the males on this forum give solutions to E2 issues or low libido issues (including ED) such as implementing scrotal T cream, microdosing, lowering T dosage, raising T dosage, adding in HCG, taking out HCG, adding nandrolone, adding oxandrolone, etc., yet most of us keep getting on here because guess what... we still don't feel good or we still aren't satisfied, and some of us are just simply curious about the science behind it all. Interesting, to say the least.

And of course, you will always have guys jump in and say, "Well, that's not TRT. You're cycling." Well, TRT is supposed to increase quality of life, not take away from it. So as viable & sustainable adjunct therapies present themselves to men who don't respond optimally to Testosterone, it would be a far cry from the truth to label that cycling.

 

[DS3]

I have Masteron and Primo in stock but still a little afraid to use them because of hair loss.

Overblown reputation in my opinion. Testosterone alone causes more hair loss in me than adding in a DHT derivative (besides Proviron. Proviron really does a number on my hair).

 

[DS3]

Oversees doctor using Proviron year-round with his patients. Reports no cardiovascular issues and no impact on fertility.