Clomid worked for test numbers but there is a twist to the story

[Justaguy]

Hello all,

My testosterone levels were 150, I was feeling like crap. Low mood, low energy, brain fog, low libido that has become non-existentant.

I began on testosterone cyp low dose injections 3 times a week and was put on Anastrozole 1 mg per day.... My test went through the roof over 1500. Multiple test results and things were in the normal ranges, did not feel any better than without the test.... Went to an Endo and he suggested Clomiphene. He asked me to get off of both the test and Anastrozole. I agreed and a month later I was taking Clomid 25 mg daily..... After 4 weeks I rested blood work.... Test was around 900 but I was feeling very emotional, found out that my total estrogens were high and he restarted me on Anastrozole.

Been on Clomid 25 my and Anastrozole 1 mg daily.... Been doing this for about a year.... Still have not felt any better than before TRT but I do feel not as emotional as I did on the clomid but not on Anastrozole.

Still have not felt any better, I get it I am 42 but pretty active and in pretty good shape. So after I did some research, mainly on this forum, I asked to have my E2 levels checked and then rouble checked... Because it is the sensitivity test and I am at 74 and then 72.... Range is 20-39 per quest diagnostics.

So, it seems that I am already on a high dose of anastrozole and yet my E2 levels are almost double the high range. Endo does not have ideas.

Do I am turning to all of you. I have had just about every blood test this past year and most of them multiple times.... If there is a specific test you want just ask.

 

[Justaguy]

Sorry for the typos, I do not type well and autocorrect is bad

 

[Gman86]

So you’re on too high of a dose of Clomid most likely. The most i’d probably do is 12.5mg per day. The other thing is that you’re on way too much anastrozole. 1mg/ day is extreme overkill. The most I would do to start would probably be 1mg/ week. That’s the most. I personally would start with 0.5mg/ week while on Clomid. But honestly, clomid isn’t really the best option if you’re going to be on hormone replacement for the rest of your life. For that, I would recommend trying out testosterone again, at a low dose, and with no ai.

 

[Cataceous]

As you've learned the hard way, anastrozole is ineffective against Clomid-stimulated estradiol. With the fairly high dose your LH is probably high, and is in turn directly stimulating aromatization in Leydig cells. High levels of intratesticular testosterone render AIs ineffective in this environment. As Gman says, one thing to do is start over with a much lower dose of Clomid, such as 12.5 mg EOD or daily. Some guys are surprised to see testosterone increase with the decrease in Clomid, but this can happen.

 

[fifty]

Have you considered trying testosterone instead of clomid?

 

[Justaguy]

So you’re on too high of a dose of Clomid most likely. The most i’d probably do is 12.5mg per day. The other thing is that you’re on way too much anastrozole. 1mg/ day is extreme overkill. The most I would do to start would probably be 1mg/ week. That’s the most. I personally would start with 0.5mg/ week while on Clomid. But honestly, clomid isn’t really the best option if you’re going to be on hormone replacement for the rest of your life. For that, I would recommend trying out testosterone again, at a low dose, and with no ai.

Going to try enclomiphene instead of clomid. Kinda thought that 25 mg daily was not too much, then as I read more about Anastrozole and seeing that I am on a crazy high dose, I knew something was off....

You would think that the high dose of anastrozole would be enough to counter the E2 levels.

I like the idea of clomid or enclomiphene instead of straight test. I like how it encourages the body to make it's own instead of introducing test to the body.

 

[Justaguy]

As you've learned the hard way, anastrozole is ineffective against Clomid-stimulated estradiol. With the fairly high dose your LH is probably high, and is in turn directly stimulating aromatization in Leydig cells. High levels of intratesticular testosterone render AIs ineffective in this environment. As Gman says, one thing to do is start over with a much lower dose of Clomid, such as 12.5 mg EOD or daily. Some guys are surprised to see testosterone increase with the decrease in Clomid, but this can happen.

I wish I knew that it was ineffective. I will have to try the lower dose. Kinda wierd that my test levels are middle of the road and my total estrogen is middle of the road. But the E2 is crazy high. If my test was over 1500 or something I could see a higher E2 level.... But what you are saying makes sense, that Anastrozole is ineffective against clomid....

Is it also ineffective for enclomiphene?

What is effective for Clomid?

 

[Justaguy]

Have you considered trying testosterone instead of clomid?

Yes I started out with test cyp injections.

I was not checking my E2 levels when I was on it.

And the test didn't really do anything for me, no change in syptoms.

 

[Vince Carter]

As you've learned the hard way, anastrozole is ineffective against Clomid-stimulated estradiol. With the fairly high dose your LH is probably high, and is in turn directly stimulating aromatization in Leydig cells. High levels of intratesticular testosterone render AIs ineffective in this environment. As Gman says, one thing to do is start over with a much lower dose of Clomid, such as 12.5 mg EOD or daily. Some guys are surprised to see testosterone increase with the decrease in Clomid, but this can happen.

Great post.

 

[Vince Carter]

Yes I started out with test cyp injections.

I was not checking my E2 levels when I was on it.

And the test didn't really do anything for me, no change in syptoms.

There's really not much to be said in all of this besides its just all wrong, you're Dr's aren't knowledgeable to the treatment they're prescribing. Probably need to stop everything and restart with Defy or PrimeBody if you're going to have any success, at all.

 

[Gman86]

I wish I knew that it was ineffective. I will have to try the lower dose. Kinda wierd that my test levels are middle of the road and my total estrogen is middle of the road. But the E2 is crazy high. If my test was over 1500 or something I could see a higher E2 level.... But what you are saying makes sense, that Anastrozole is ineffective against clomid....

Is it also ineffective for enclomiphene?

What is effective for Clomid?

Honestly, not much is effective with Clomid. It's a complicated compound. Part of the compound itself is estrogenic. So not only will you get estrogen elevation from the increase in testosterone, part of the drug itself stimulates estrogen receptors. It's an extremely difficult drug to use long term with good success. The other downsides are that it can raise SHBG, and lower your free testosterone. When I was on Clomid, my total testosterone rose to a little over 1500, but my SHBG went up to 90, so my free T was bottom of the barrel. When I was on Clomid, I literally have never felt that bad before in my life. Extreme depression, suicidal thoughts, thinking about death a lot, anxiety, fatigue, low libido, penis was out of commission. The list goes on. It was the worst experience of my entire life. For a comparison, I currently have zero depression or anxiety, and never really had either my entire life. So it was extremely scary having all of those symptoms. But I was on a high dose of 50mg/day. So not sure how I would of done on say 12.5mg/ day, or EOD.

I personally would only recommend Clomid for fertility purposes, and only used short term. I don't think it's a good option for long term hormone replacement.

 

[Cataceous]

I wish I knew that it was ineffective. I will have to try the lower dose. Kinda wierd that my test levels are middle of the road and my total estrogen is middle of the road. But the E2 is crazy high. If my test was over 1500 or something I could see a higher E2 level.... But what you are saying makes sense, that Anastrozole is ineffective against clomid....

Is it also ineffective for enclomiphene?

What is effective for Clomid?

Enclomiphene is still stimulating LH production, so too much will cause the same issue. The advantage of enclomiphene over Clomid (clomiphene) is that you've gotten rid of zuclomiphene, which is the estrogenic isomer.

Only going to a lower dose of enclomiphene or Clomid will significantly reduce intratesticular aromatization.

 

[Systemlord]

An endocrinologist or urologist on average aren't very helpful in endocrine disorders related to sex hormones, thyroid and diabetes is another story altogether. Medical school devotes very little time educating doctors on sex hormones, male sex hormone knowledge is very poorly understood by most sick care doctors that it makes sense to steer clear of them and seek out sports medicine and anti-aging doctors who are into preventive medicine and tend to be more forward thinking and take an interest in the patient's symptoms.

 

[Justaguy]

Yup, my Endo is not doing me any favors. There are only two endos on my Heath insurance. They guy before this one was worse.

I began with a anti aging doc but the price increases for the meds were insane. He had me on the test injection with an HCG injection, B12 injection and Anastrozole. And was charging lots of money per month.

I don't mind the injections especially because the sub-q method of injecting every 3 days at a lower dose worked well for my test numbers, but again no libido.

Perhaps starting from the beginning again would be best... A year is alot of lost time.

 

[Justaguy]

Honestly, not much is effective with Clomid. It's a complicated compound. Part of the compound itself is estrogenic. So not only will you get estrogen elevation from the increase in testosterone, part of the drug itself stimulates estrogen receptors. It's an extremely difficult drug to use long term with good success. The other downsides are that it can raise SHBG, and lower your free testosterone. When I was on Clomid, my total testosterone rose to a little over 1500, but my SHBG went up to 90, so my free T was bottom of the barrel. When I was on Clomid, I literally have never felt that bad before in my life. Extreme depression, suicidal thoughts, thinking about death a lot, anxiety, fatigue, low libido, penis was out of commission. The list goes on. It was the worst experience of my entire life. For a comparison, I currently have zero depression or anxiety, and never really had either my entire life. So it was extremely scary having all of those symptoms. But I was on a high dose of 50mg/day. So not sure how I would of done on say 12.5mg/ day, or EOD.

I personally would only recommend Clomid for fertility purposes, and only used short term. I don't think it's a good option for long term hormone replacement.

So go back to test injections every 3 days sub-q,
Check estrogens to include E2 and see if I need Anastrozole, then cycle to HCG to maintain body functions?

 

[Gman86]

Yup, my Endo is not doing me any favors. There are only two endos on my Heath insurance. They guy before this one was worse.

I began with a anti aging doc but the price increases for the meds were insane. He had me on the test injection with an HCG injection, B12 injection and Anastrozole. And was charging lots of money per month.

I don't mind the injections especially because the sub-q method of injecting every 3 days at a lower dose worked well for my test numbers, but again no libido.

Perhaps starting from the beginning again would be best... A year is alot of lost time.

I would just switch to Defy. Cheap, intelligent doctors and nurses, customer service is A+, process to work with them couldn’t be easier, doesn’t matter what state you live in. They’ll get you on track. That’s the best advice I can give. I tried going to 2 endos. One was an idiot. The other was a little better, but thought testosterone replacement was the worst thing you could do for your health. Went to 2 HRT clinics after that. One was pretty bad, and the other was horrible. Defy was a god send. Just thankful a place like that exists. Was losing hope before I found them.

 

[Justaguy]

Does the Anastrozole not work at all when using clomid or not all that well....

Should I start by going to 12.5 mg clomid Monday, Wednesday and Friday, stay on the 1mg Anastrozole daily and then check my levels in a month? While I look into alternatives for the testosterone.

Besides the testosterone cyp injections, is there something else I can look into? What about just using HCG?

 

[Systemlord]

Does the Anastrozole not work at all when using clomid or not all that well....

Should I start by going to 12.5 mg clomid Monday, Wednesday and Friday, stay on the 1mg Anastrozole daily and then check my levels in a month? While I look into alternatives for the testosterone.

Besides the testosterone cyp injections, is there something else I can look into? What about just using HCG?

Clomid has a dual action on estrogen receptors. HCG monotherapy has stands a better chance of working than clomid, but only stimulates half of the testicles and anastrozole can't affect E2 produced inside the testicles forcing a dosage reduction and sacrificing good T levels.

TRT doesn't have any of these limitations, you can order your whopper the way you want it.

 

[Justaguy]

So for a non body builder, but active guy, who may still want kids....

Is it better to do low dose Testosterone Cyponate and cycle HCG to maintain fertility. Use of anastrozole if E2 gets out of range, which I would say would because back when I was on test, my total estrogen went way high... I would imagine my E2 was also high....

I wonder if my E2 was high when on test injections that could explain why I wasn't feeling any better on it. My total estrogen was in normal limits after Anastrozole.

Are there other options or go back to test the only way to raise my test without increasing my E2 levels so high.

I understand that Anastrozole will not lower E2 levels made in the testies.

 

[Justaguy]

I was just reading and reading and reading..... And there where a few posts that stated that E2 level teat while on Clomid will give a false high reading????

Ideas on that?

Kinda figured if the E2 is there it is there.... Are they saying that the E2 is not binding to anything so it does not matter?

Confusion at its best over here.