Can estrogen crash cause desensitization/knock out of the estrogen receptor - lets discuss!

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simeoni

Member
Since the posts on this matter are quite scattered, I decided to start a new thread. Im hoping that this one could be a hub for all kinds of discussion on this topic.

If I have understood correctly the hypothesis on this is that a prolonged deprivation of ones estrogen - by using an AI - may lead to gene alterations on the estrogen receptor. Despite normal serum levels the estrogen is not able to bind on its receptor and thus one may have symptoms of low estrogen.

This hypothesis is mainly promoted by nurselyfe and hopefully he will also contribute in this thread.

The main reason that makes me interested in this is the fact I seem to be having low estrogen symptoms even though I haven't used an AI in months and my E2 levels are good - when tested with sensitive method.

What this means is that somewhat high E2 makes me feel worse when in the past it was associated with a lot of positive "symptoms".

At first I think it's important to see if we can find anything that would give support to this hypothesis. Now I haven't really been scavenging the deep ends of pubmed whit this. That said, I have not yet seen a single study that would make this hypothesis more plausible.

What we do see is the fact that certain estrogen receptor are up-regulated and become hypersensitive - after estrogen deprivation. An example of this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16113100

I have also experienced this at first hand and im sure that so are many other user on this forum.

Also there is an animal study that observed a change in mating behavior after prolonged E2 deprivation: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...18506X81900180

However the conclusion was not that the cause was the desensitization of estrogen receptors.


Now from the anecdotal perspective there is me, nurselyfe and lowe2sucks that claim to have persistent low e2 symptoms despite not taking any AI:s - and having a normal E2 level.

When it comes to the validity of these anecdotes, I think its important to see how the process of elimination is applied.

I think that I have excluded many of the other possible factors that might contribute to my symptoms. Those who are interested can look my other threads on this matter.

nurselyfe seems to be in the process of ruling out other factors. That's good. Im hoping that he could post his lab work in this thread.

Lowe2sucks does not seem to be really consistent with his protocols. Also I havent really seen him post any recent labs.

Now there was also one anecdotal that was originally posted on a PFS forum. Here's what that guy wrote:

"Hello folks.

I thought i would just make a post warning the risks of using Aromatise Inhibitors to alleviate some of the symptoms of PFS.

In August 2015 i was experimenting with small doses of Arimidex and Aromasin. I found that my libido would return from one dosage then it would fade away. I tried many dosing protocols and ended up taking too much Aromasin. I lowered my Estradiol too far and suffered the effects of estradiol deprivation for a short period of time. About a week after cessation of aromasin i suddenly crashed again and all hell broke loose.

Over the next 6 months i started rapidly degenerating with numerous new physical, neurological and sexual symptoms. The connective tissue all over my body lost all tensile strength and i can no longer bend any joint without risk of injury. My small and large intestine totally lost peristalsis and i was forced to go on a liquid diet to prevent a blockage. My brainfog became so bad that i now feel like i am in a video game. My vision is now blurry and grainy with flashes and floaters. As of last week my stomach has now shut down on me and i am living off pure liquids to prevent vomitting. My **** and libido are totally gone but those are the least of my worries.

It has been 12 months now since i stopped the Aromatise Inhibitors and things are only getting worse. I had bloodwork done and everything was in the range including estradiol! I even tried estradiol creams and took my e2 over range with no effect. Just like how DHT cream and TRT had no effects on my PFS.

I do not know what to make of this situation, but it seems that i have induced another systemic hormone problem on an estrogen pathway. It seems my body is just too sensitive to go inhibiting enzymes.

I am sure most will think this is a post by some crazy hypochondriac but i hope i can at least stop one person from going down the bad road of self experimentation. My life is now over and i require daily care to live. I lost my business and independence and i do not want the same to happen to anyone else.

Tread carefully friends. Stay away from ANY enzyme inhibitor.
"

http://www.propeciahelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11335

Apparently he committed suicide after this ordeal.


Now from the other perspective there are multitudes of anecdotals from different forums where users report being <5 pg/ml for months and they still seem to return to their old selves. Also there was a study posted where men used 1mg of arimidex a day for 16 weeks. I would assume that those guys - or atleast some of them - were pretty deprived of estrogen for a long time. So I guess my question is; why would this "desinsitization" happen only to a few people?
 
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simeoni

Member
What are your current symptoms at the moment?

Mine are:

- Low libido - although not non existent.
- Low drive
- Lack of the ability to enjoy the things that I used to
- dont really feel as connected to others as I used to
- Feeling of agitation an "mental pain" after a bigger T shot



once you crash your e2 your body is never the same.. after 1 crash it will recover you will be 90-95% again but every crash basically makes you worse and worse.. lets say you had 3 crashes.. now even if your e2 will return you will only return to about 70-80% and thats after at least few months.. there is a possibility that after few years you will be able to return to 100% but I only will be able to tell you that after few years.. when your e2 gets to nonexistant at receptor level something bad happens which can be permanent.. body response and sensitivity to e2 changes and even if the levels return some of the symptoms you began to have when you crashed will stay with you be it dry skin or frequent urination or the psychological symptoms like anxiety and depression
 
if you crash and let your e2 rebound right away (to be able to rebound you need to use only a small doses of AI since if it's dose like 1mg it will take more time for AI to get out of the system since few half-lifes) you will be able to get back to your normal self even though you might feel like shit during the rebound. but if you crash and stay that way for some time (in my case even 1-2 weeks) you may end up with symptoms you got on crash for long time maybe even permanent but hopefully not. every crash you will get worse and worse.. the longer you stay estradiol deprived the worse the consequnces and e2 sensitivity will be.. the more crashed e2 side effects will stay with you. When I used small dose of AI and crashed I was able to recover back to normal because the dose was small so it was out of my system very fast and I let it rebound right away (it was pretty painful period of time). But when I crashed and stayed crashed for 2 weeks thats when some permanent changes happened to me.. something happens when you get 0 estrogen for even week possibly at receptor level or something. if you get too low it's one thing.. if you get to 0 and stay there for some time it's a totally different story and your body changes response to e2
 
At this moment: apathy, agitation, light sensitivity, disconnected from others, overwhelming sadness, GI issues, frequent urination, body temperature fluctuations, low motivation, bad mood and just overall feeling like dog shit.
When I crashed hard I had much more symptoms and much worse.. basically what I wrote above I felt like before I started to use 1mg doses. it was hell on earth compared to what I wrote above
 

simeoni

Member
Ok. Sorry to hear! Can you share your current protocol? Taking any DHEA, Preg or HCG with your test?

At this moment: apathy, agitation, light sensitivity, disconnected from others, overwhelming sadness, GI issues, frequent urination, body temperature fluctuations, low motivation, bad mood and just overall feeling like dog shit.
When I crashed hard I had much more symptoms and much worse.. basically what I wrote above I felt like before I started to use 1mg doses. it was hell on earth compared to what I wrote above
 
no only testosterone gel solo
I honestly belive that messing with pregnenolone and dhea made me go backwards a bit.. I won't use any of these again.
 
compounded 20%
im not sure if Ican say the dose im now under care of Dr. Saya I don't want to disclose the protocols.

Interesting Defy Med has never told me I should not talk about my protocols. I'm new to trt is discussing protocols a no no?
Since everyone is different and Defy basis your protocol on your medical history and blood tests no two will be exactly alike.
 
I wasn't told not to do so I just thought it wasn't right thing to do
for some reason today I started to feel better a bit mentally but physically more achy and dizzy
 

nurselyfe

Member
Been consistent with my protocol for awhile now. 30mg T pinned EOD. No AI. Dropped the HCG awhile ago because I do not respond to it. Have every symptom LowE2sucks has.

I've gotten progressively worse over the summer, due to 5 crashes. Then using Nolvadex and Clomid made me worse, permanently. My life is completely different now in ways you couldn't even imagine. I've lost an incredible amount of muscle, I have ED, severe hair loss, anxiety, water retention (doesn't line up with my old low E2 symptoms, but I have this) and cannot enjoy things like I used to. These are my most prominent and disturbing symptoms.

Got blood work today to really rule out any thyroid dysfunction.
 

Vitamin_C

Member
The first study showed ENHANCED sensitivity to the receptor on tumors . As far as PFS forums go, the anecdotal accounts can be toxic , particularly the hundreds of guys that believe they gave themselves PFS from Rogaine lol.

Also, I just read a study on men with finasteride and the placebo group reported more sexual side effects than the control (finasteride) group.
 

nurselyfe

Member
The first study showed ENHANCED sensitivity to the receptor on tumors . As far as PFS forums go, the anecdotal accounts can be toxic , particularly the hundreds of guys that believe they gave themselves PFS from Rogaine lol.

Also, I just read a study on men with finasteride and the placebo group reported more sexual side effects than the control (finasteride) group.

We know what the first study says. This is generally true for all hormones. You deprive the receptors, they up-regulate and become more sensitive to their respective ligand.

I noticed this hypersensitivity when I would stop my AI when I first began crashing E2. I would get high estrogen symptoms extremely quick (after being in a "crappy" sweet spot for 1-3 days, not like my old sweet spots where I felt extremely dry hard and aggressive). But, I'm sure my E2 was still quite low. I would take .25mg arimidex, and crash again. Couldn't figure it out for months. Too late now.
 
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at15

Active Member
Interesting to discuss but I still think simeoni, nurselyfe, and lowe2sucks will all recover back to 100%. Please continue with your updates and blood work.

Also what are your ages? I think all 3 of you are young and former bodybuilders?
 

nurselyfe

Member
Interesting to discuss but I still think simeoni, nurselyfe, and lowe2sucks will all recover back to 100%. Please continue with your updates and blood work.

Also what are your ages? I think all 3 of you are young and former bodybuilders?

I'm 24. Wouldn't call myself a bodybuilder per se but it was my passion and hobby. Should have a set of blood work to share by the end of this week, possibly monday.
 

nurselyfe

Member
What did your blasts look like in the past?

I started testosterone at 500mg/week for 25 weeks. Came off for 6 weeks with nolva and clomid and felt fine by week six so I went back on at 150mg/week. Did a show a year later, ran 300mg/week for 8 weeks. Then back down to 120mg after the show ever since.

Always too afraid to use any other compounds and my HDL is genetically low (my father who never drinks or smokes and exercises has the same issue), so I didn't want to make it worse.
 

at15

Active Member
I started testosterone at 500mg/week for 25 weeks. Came off for 6 weeks with nolva and clomid and felt fine by week six so I went back on at 150mg/week. Did a show a year later, ran 300mg/week for 8 weeks. Then back down to 120mg after the show ever since.

Always too afraid to use any other compounds and my HDL is genetically low (my father who never drinks or smokes and exercises has the same issue), so I didn't want to make it worse.
ok wow very reasonable usage. Must have been looking good after that 25 weeks 500mg. Im assuming adex didnt cause issues on these blasts just when you starting running 120mg?
 

simeoni

Member
Im 30. I would not call myself a bodybuilder. I do hit the gym 3-4 times a week. Never done any blast's.

One thing im wondering is the fact how the hypersensitivity of estrogen receptors would lead to a desensitization that is below baseline?

I mean when estrogen levels rise - from their deprived state - the receptor's adapt. With the majority this means a return to a normal state. How does it mean a permanent change in a very small minority? What would be the mechanism behind it?
 
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