Anybody on Statin Drugs?

[sexualathlete]

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that statins save and extend lives. If you already have got plague it's too late. The key is to prevent from getting it in the first place. I'm on rosuvastatin myself along with ezetimibe because I use quite a lot of gear and my LDL goes up to 130 when I'm on cycle. The drugs literally halved that number along with my CRP. We don't actually know if gear just causes a cosmetic increase in LDL but I figured it's better to be safe than sorry.

Rosuvastatin actually inhibits rho kinase and also makes pde5 inhibitors work better = better erections. I have personally noticed that effect.

 

[Vince]

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that statins save and extend lives. If you already have got plague it's too late. The key is to prevent from getting it in the first place. I'm on rosuvastatin myself along with ezetimibe because I use quite a lot of gear and my LDL goes up to 130 when I'm on cycle. The drugs literally halved that number along with my CRP. We don't actually know if gear just causes a cosmetic increase in LDL but I figured it's better to be safe than sorry.

Rosuvastatin actually inhibits rho kinase and also makes pde5 inhibitors work better = better erections. I have personally noticed that effect.

I would have to disagree with you. If you have coronary plaque and you stopped the growth to 10% or less a year, your arteries will adjust and open up. And you should never have a heart attack or stroke no matter how high your score is.

 

[Blackhawk]

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that statins save and extend lives.

I am underwhelmed.

A great example of the pertinent numbers is in the Lipitor prescribing information itself. Refer to the ASCOT study numbers.

Lipitor: Package Insert - Drugs.com

Lipitor package insert / prescribing information for healthcare professionals. Includes: indications, dosage, adverse reactions and pharmacology.

www.drugs.com

10,305 patients in the study
46 events in the placebo group
40 events in the Lipitor group

or non-fatal MI
-108 events in the placebo
-60 events in the Lipitor group

Total everything up and you get

relative risk reduction of 36% [(based on incidences of 1.9% for Lipitor vs. 3.0% for placebo)

So, the number touted: 36%, is derived from 1.9% vs 3% events in the comparative groups which comparatively is a difference on 1.1 in a hundred. 1.1%

36% does not represent the actual number of patients per hundred who benefit. It is a figure that computes based on the numbers 1.9 and 3.

A little further on in the document: relative risk for revascularization procedures... 42% (incidences of 1.4% for Lipitor and 2.5% for placebo) Again a difference on 1.1 in a hundred.

So 42.5% relative risk reduction for a difference of 1.1%.

So what the heck is going on here?

"Relative risk reduction" is a deviously clever way to mis-represent raw data. Here is the equation:

Control group event rate (CER)
Experimental Event Rate (EER)

(CER-EER)/CER=RRR

Relative Risk Reduction Formula

Formula to Calculate Relative Risk Reduction Relative risk reduction is a relative reduction in the overall business risks due to adverse circumstances of

www.wallstreetmojo.com

If you keep reading further in this document, there is case after case in the study data with differences less than 2% between lipitor and placebo groups.


Yet: "Diabetes was reported as an adverse reaction in 144 subjects (6.1%) in the atorvastatin group and 89 subjects (3.8%) in the placebo group"

Let's do the math
CER=3.8%
EER=6.1%
3.8-6.1=-2.3
-2.3/3.8= -.6 or -60%

This negative number means 60% relative risk INCREASE.

So you have about 36% better relative risk in terms of cardiovascular, but about 60% worse RRR for developing diabetes taking it.

Personally, I put ZERO credence in RRR. The raw data tells the real story.

 

[Mountain Man]

Neither parent had heart attacks, nor did any grandparents or aunts or uncles. According to this logic, every male over 65 should be on a statin.

 

[Vince]

Neither parent had heart attacks, nor did any grandparents or aunts or uncles. According to this logic, every male over 65 should be on a statin.

Well I guess I wouldn't worry about having a heart attack. And I wouldn't go on a statin.

Are your parents still alive?

I'm sure you know it's not your doctor decision, but your decision to make. You don't have to take a med that's prescribed by your doctor.

 

[Mountain Man]

Well I guess I wouldn't worry about having a heart attack. And I wouldn't go on a statin.

Are your parents still alive?

I'm sure you know it's not your doctor decision, but your decision to make. You don't have to take a med that's prescribed by your doctor.

My mom died age 80 of Parkinson’s, dad at 93. Two of dad’s siblings died at 90 and 96.

And, yes, it was never anybody’s decision but mine. I questioned why and there was no clinical reason they could give. It appears that all men are only created equal when it comes to meditation. All men over 65, regardless of any other factors, are going to be told to go on statins after age 65 by some doctors. Many guys will not ask why and just do what the doctor said. I think It is important to track your own bloodwork, heart rate, blood pressure, and glucose levels and do so regularly.

I also pride myself in being very fit although the only person that sees me shirtless is my wife. Never was a fan of the dad bod and I am not going to give up and accept the granddad bod that’s for sure. My avitar picture was taken a couple months ago at age 68 and a half.

 

[Golfboy307]

Interesting discussion. Something I certainly pay attention to. Vince, with regards to one's parents, it certainly depends on the genetics you inherit. For instance, my dad died at 44 of a heart attack. Ton of risk factors, including smoking and high stress job. My mom is in her 80's with no heart issues.

I asked several of my doctors about "heredity" when it comes to heart disease. I liked this explanation: Inherited risk for heart disease almost always manifests itself in a physical process. Genes express themselves in our body. For instance, my dad likely had one or more of the many causes of an MI/plaque: smoking (check), overweight (check), high BP (check), inflammation, diabetes, LP(a), poor lipids (check), poor diet, lack of exercise, stress. The list goes on and on right?

My doctor said to focus on mitigating those risks and stop worrying about your "inherited risk". For the record, I think the only one on that list he passed on to me is hypertension. All of the others I have little to no issues. Not on a statin due to strong lipid profile (and other reasons discussed above). Could I still have a heart attack? Sure, I believe my risk is lower thanks to managing the above factors. (Age 55).

 

[Vince]

Both of my parents 89 years old, have heart disease. My dad at age 60, had a heart attack and my mom at age 70. Both survived bypass surgery and are doing good. It's amazing how long they have lived after a heart attack and bypass surgery. I'm thankful, mentally they are 100%. With my parents history of heart disease, I'm sure I'm a candidate for heart disease also.

 

[DragonBits]

I recently had my annual physical with my primary care doctor. My numbers were perfect, 26 BMI, cholesterol 173, blood pressure 110/78, resting pulse 54. I was shocked when my doctor emailed me after and said that I had a 12.5% risk of heart attack and that I should be on a statin drug. She prescribed Lipitor. When I called and inquired why, as all my numbers were good, she told me that I had two major risk factors. One is that I am 68 years old and the other is that I am a male. No other risk factors. I’m wondering how many guys here over the age of 65 have been prescribed a statin drug. Naturally, I refused this but I am wondering how many guys here have been told the same thing because of age and gender that we are at risk for heart attack and need to be on a statin?

The doctor is right in that the "risk calculators" dont really care what your BMI, cholesterol blood pressure, resting pulse are, not any blood test, any physical test, your age and being male means you should have a statin.

I you played around with the risk calculators, if you are over 65 and male, you can't get them to suggest you don't need a statin.

The doc could say, don't bother with blood tests, you are male and over 65, that is the only evidence you need to prove you need a statin.

 

[DragonBits]

If I develop risk factors I certainly would, but a need a little more than being 68 and male. If insurance would cover it I would do it now. Funny how they want me on meds permanently but won’t pay for a one time heart scan.

Well, around Illinois a heart scan cost $49. at that price I care less about insurance. Though I am sure medicare won't cover it.

I got two scans, one in 2018, one in 2019, I will go for a third, though likely I won't bother with another one after that.

The scores were 79 then 119, if that rate continues, a new scan should be around 400, but likely the rate of change changed.

Also, I got this at two entirely different hospitals, who knows if that is a factor. The reports were similar though obviously the numbers changed.

If that is the same sort of price around where you live, I would get it. A zero / near zero score at your age would be great. Nearly everyone eventually gets some calcium.

As in, 90% of men at age 70 have some coronary artery calcification.

 

[DragonBits]

Both of my parents 89 years old, have heart disease. My dad at age 60, had a heart attack and my mom at age 70. Both survived bypass surgery and are doing good. It's amazing me how long they have lived after a heart attack and bypass surgery. I'm thankful mentally they are 100%. With my parents history of heart disease, I'm sure I'm a candidate for heart disease also.

Since heart disease is the leading cause of death, I would say the entire world is at risk.

Statistics, love them, used to work with stats all the time, I know from experience how they can be twisted to look better or worse.

My mom died last year at age 93, no autopsy, no history of heart problems, but a good guess would be heart attack. My dad died at 86, heart attack, though he was a heavy smoker and had copd. He did have a quadruple bypass maybe 20 years before that. Both of them were obviously weak before it happened.

Got to die from something, the later the better and the whole point is to be healthy until it catches up with you.

 

[DixieWrecked]

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that statins save and extend lives. If you already have got plague it's too late. The key is to prevent from getting it in the first place. I'm on rosuvastatin myself along with ezetimibe because I use quite a lot of gear and my LDL goes up to 130 when I'm on cycle. The drugs literally halved that number along with my CRP. We don't actually know if gear just causes a cosmetic increase in LDL but I figured it's better to be safe than sorry.

Rosuvastatin actually inhibits rho kinase and also makes pde5 inhibitors work better = better erections. I have personally noticed that effect.

I've heard good things about rosuvastatin and erections. I take 10mg a day but don't notice much. What's your dose.

I've also heard that arterial calcification can be reversed, specifcally by high doses of vitamin K.
Vitamin K And Vascular Calcification - Life Extension

How Vitamin K2 Reduces Atherosclerosis - Life Extension

Scientists have presented evidence that vitamin K2 can reduce progression of atherosclerosis, the blockage of the arteries that can lead to heart attacks and strokes.

www.lifeextension.com

Vitamin K2 Reverses Artery Hardening by 40%

Vitamin K2 Reverses Artery Hardening by 40%A high-dose vitamin K supplement reduced calcium precipitates associated with hardening of the arteries ...

www.rejuvenation-science.com

Vitamin K And Vascular Calcification - Life Extension

Arterial stiffness increases risk of cardiovascular disorders and dementia. A clinical trial using long-acting vitamin K2 showed significant reductions of arterial stiffening. This provides a new opportunity to restore more youthful flexibility to aging blood vessels.

www.lifeextension.com

 

[DragonBits]

There are numerous studies on pub Med that indicate the effects of them on men in my situation are inconsequential and could be counter productive. They are now giving risk factors that cannot be controlled, age and gender. I am not as critical about medicine as most guys here, but I do think you have to be involved and do your own research.

I also contacted Men’s Health Boston, Abraham Morgentaler’s clinic, where I get TRT and they sent me this article which indicates that TRT is preventative for high cholesterol:

Long-term testosterone therapy in hypogonadal men ameliorates elements of the metabolic syndrome: an observational, long-term registry study

The goal of this study was to determine if long-term testosterone (T) therapy in men with hypogonadism, henceforth referred to as testosterone deficiency (TD), ameliorates or improves metabolic syndrome (MetS) components.We performed a cumulative registry ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"I am not as critical about medicine as most guys here"

cognitive dissonance

Most guys here already are on a medicine, IE: Testosterone.

 

[Mountain Man]

"I am not as critical about medicine as most guys here"

cognitive dissonance

Most guys here already are on a medicine, IE: Testosterone.

Right, but most of us need it and we’re not told we should take it by a doctor. We chose and it was not pushed on us. My PCP went so far as to call my pharmacy. Big difference,

 

[tareload]

Right, but most of us need it and we’re not told we should take it by a doctor. We chose and it was not pushed on us. My PCP went so far as to call my pharmacy. Big difference,

Standard of care. Too bad she did not discuss it with you....one of the 4 pillars of medical ethics: patient autonomy.

Unfortunately CYA and standard of care are part of the fun. Put yourself in her position. Have you asked about standard of care at your medical facility?

 

[Vince]

Most guys I know don't do medical test because they're afraid of the answer they might get. They rather not even know if something's wrong. I hear all the time. I'm just the opposite. I want to know if something's wrong so I can study it and try to find the right answer to fix it. Or at least be educated on the subject.

 

[Golfboy307]

I definitely take a strong K2 supplement as part of my regime, as recommended by my anti aging/hormone MD

 

[MarcoFL]

I am not sure what to think! What I do know is the people that push statins do not talk about overall health, fitness and wellness. I am not a conspiracy type! I had a group of friends at my home one night and got into the health discussion a thoracic surgeon laughed at me and said stop worrying with my body type! His feeling were that body type is one of the best markers unless a major issue! I am 60 in very good overall health have been on HRT for last ten years. My wife and I are out 360 nights a year and have 2 glasses of wine every night and our cholesterol is around 250. I have a zero on calcium score and under 1 on my CRP.

Hate to sound mean but I am pretty convinced if you are fat and stressed you will have a rough road ahead of you! I am going to do my best but I want to enjoy life and we love great food-drink-friends-family. Like the earlier post said you will die at some point. I feel the medical community does not focus on right issues that are in our control! Wish you all the best during the holiday season!

 

[KatyTX]

I recently had my annual physical with my primary care doctor. My numbers were perfect, 26 BMI, cholesterol 173, blood pressure 110/78, resting pulse 54. I was shocked when my doctor emailed me after and said that I had a 12.5% risk of heart attack and that I should be on a statin drug. She prescribed Lipitor. When I called and inquired why, as all my numbers were good, she told me that I had two major risk factors. One is that I am 68 years old and the other is that I am a male. No other risk factors. I’m wondering how many guys here over the age of 65 have been prescribed a statin drug. Naturally, I refused this but I am wondering how many guys here have been told the same thing because of age and gender that we are at risk for heart attack and need to be on a statin?

I wouldn’t look at absolute cholesterol. Look at the ratio of total to HDL. I’m guessing your HDL is in the 40’s if you’re like me on TRT, which does bring down HDL. Ratio of 3 is good. 5 not so good. I’m 171 and 42. On a 5mg statin for cholesterol, my total is now 107. Ridiculous right?!!

There are varying views in cholesterol. So only defending the ratio here. I’m actually indifferent. But by seeing my cardiologist (I have zero heart issues) I get full panels of blood test two time a year and reasonably priced heart scan, stress test and coroided artery scans.

 

[bruin]

This yr at my physical I came away with high blood pressure and high cholesterol level. I attribute the blood pressure due to business and a divorce problems and the fact that I was not going to the gym as usual. Im 63, M and father died of stroke, due to these risk factors my Dr put me on statin, Lipitor.

He stated all men should be on a statin as early as 35 y/o, that it is beneficial. Today, several month later, BP is regular, Im an avid gym goer again with weight training and HIIT workouts which got rid of some mid section/stomach weight. My abs and Apollo girdle are visible and cholesterol is within normal range. Mentally, after couples therapy failed, I found a great therapist for solo counseling and Ive wrapped my head around the domestic and financial issues. Things are on an upswing!