ExcelMale
Menu
Home
What's new
Latest activity
Forums
New posts
Search forums
What's new
New posts
Latest activity
Videos
Lab Tests
Doctor Finder
Buy Books
About Us
Men’s Health Coaching
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
New posts
Search forums
Menu
Log in
Register
Navigation
Install the app
Install
More options
Contact us
Close Menu
Forums
How to Use This Forum and Introductions
Introductions
43 Year-old Male's TRT Journey
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="madman" data-source="post: 209809" data-attributes="member: 13851"><p><em><strong>This is all very good, helpful info! I understand your point on FT being the more important marker, and I'm hopeful to get to a protocol that puts me in a good spot, perhaps 25-35ng.</strong></em></p><p><em><strong>Regarding "Still too high a starting dose seeing as 120 mg T every 5 days would be 168 mg T/week," my rationale was based on 150mg putting me at 319ng on day 7 post-injection. But, as you and Systemlord have pointed out, by increasing injection frequency my blood serum levels will hopefully balance out, leading to 500+ng at trough with 100-120mg/wk...and likely even more achievable with 70-85mg/5days, let alone 50-60mg/3.5days. I'd like to start with trying 70mg/5days, if I can find a doctor within my insurance network that will support me with this, keeping the possibility open to the 50-60mg/3.5days that you've recommended; I don't disagree with you that 3.5days would be better for outcome, but I do want to balance outcome with frequency.</strong></em></p><p><strong><em>Increasing the frequency will also likely allow my SHBG to increase some, but that will most probably still mean a SHBG of <10, like it was on gel, before current protocol crushed it to 2 at last labs.</em></strong></p><p></p><p>I only recommended splitting your overall weekly dose 100-120mg T (50-60 mg every 3.5 days) seeing as you seem to be dead set on avoiding more frequent injections.</p><p></p><p>Even then seeing as your SHBG is absurdly low then injecting daily or EOD would most likely be more effective.</p><p></p><p>If you are dead set on less frequent injections (every 5-7 days) then give it a go.</p><p></p><p>Most that end up struggling with such protocols, especially in cases of lowish/low SHBG end up switching over to more frequent injections whether daily or EOD using lower doses of T.</p><p></p><p>I stated previously men with lowish/low SHBG can get away with running a lower TT and still achieve a healthy let alone high FT level.</p><p></p><p>With an SHBG 10 nmol/L, you can easily hit a high FT with a TT 800 ng/dL.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong><em>I also plan to switch to 27g x 1.25" needles, so that I'm still able to bury the oil quite deeply IM; I'll get some 1cc barrels, per your advice. My doctor has me injecting into quads, not butt. I load with 18g, and then switch to injection needle. You have piqued my interest in using 29g x 0.5", though. I wonder if the benefits of 29 v 27 would outweigh disadvantage of 0.5 v 1.25"...It seems my body flushes through the T quite quickly, with my super low SHBG, and I've read IM release is slower than subq. Also, my body fat is somewhat high, so I'm not sure if a 0.5" would still even make it to shallow IM.</em></strong></p><p></p><p>There should be no difference in the absorption let alone effectiveness whether injecting deep vs shallow IM.</p><p></p><p>Whether one chooses to inject strictly IM (deep/shallow) or subcutaneously the needle length used comes down to where you plan on injecting/how much adipose.</p><p></p><p>If anything the main difference between sub-q vs IM would be that absorption may be slower when injecting subcutaneously but this point would be moot depending on half-life/injection frequency.</p><p></p><p>When injecting strictly IM or sub-q keep in mind the esterified T used whether (short, medium, or long) that the main role of the ester is to control the release rate of the prodrug (esterified T) from the oily depot.</p><p></p><p>When injecting esterified T (propionate, enanthate, cypionate, decanoate, undecanoate, or mixed esters) it is not active until it is cleaved which mainly happens when it enters the bloodstream as it is rapidly hydrolyzed by esterase enzymes and all that you are left with is pure T.</p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>CONCLUSIONS</strong></p><p></p><p><em><strong>It is interesting to realize that drug absorption from an oil depot cannot entirely be described by a simple two-phase mass transfer model where concentration gradients, diffusion, and partition coefficients would enable the calculation of the expected absorption. It is demonstrated in this dissertation that there is a role of the excipient BOH in yielding an initially high absorption. <u>The oil depot forms a continuous phase after injection but will be dispersed and encapsulated at the injection site after some days</u>. <u>This in turn largely influences the way the prodrug becomes available; after release from the oil depot, it is present in the interstitial fluid which is drained through the lymph into the systemic circulation</u>. <u>Subsequently, the prodrug permeates through the wall of blood cells and is hydrolyzed</u>.</strong> <strong>Both the lymph transport and the cell wall permeation take time which is expressed in a lag time. <u>This lag time is different for each injection site</u>: <u>a subcutaneously administered prodrug</u> will enter the systemic circulation via a short path and at a low drainage flow. This results in a short lag time and a slow absorption rate constant of the prodrug. <u>Deeper administered prodrugs</u> (i.e. intramuscular injections) are suggested to be absorbed via a longer path, but at a higher flow, which results in a longer lag time but a higher absorption rate constant of the prodrug.</strong></em></p><p></p><p>[ATTACH=full]16943[/ATTACH]</p><p><strong>Figure 7.2: Schematic overview of the new insights into drug absorption from oil depots. After release from the oil depot (yellow circle at the injection site), the prodrug is transferred towards the central compartment via the lymphatic system. Here, it will be hydrolyzed to the active substance (see circle). ka = absorption rate constant; ke = elimination rate constant.</strong></p><p></p><p></p><p><em><strong>First things first, though. I need to find a competent, progressive doctor to guide me on my TRT path, who is covered by my insurance (finances are very tight - hypogonadism has been really hard on me...I haven't been able to work...no energy, no drive, super high anxiety, and depressed mood).</strong></em></p><p><strong><em>Thanks again for your advice and support!</em></strong></p><p></p><p>Most end up paying out of pocket when it comes to being treated by a doctor in the know.</p><p></p><p>You stepped into a mess from the get-go wasting all this time only to end up no better off.</p><p></p><p><em><strong> </strong></em></p><p><em><strong>I was started out on 40.5mg gel, then increased to 81mg, but even at 81mg my T levels didn't exceed 250ng/dl. My endocrinologist refused to increase dose or switch to injections, so I changed to a different endocrinologist in May '21, who agreed that I should move to <u>IM injections, and started me on 150mg/2weeks testosterone cypionate</u>.</strong></em></p><p></p><p>The idiot started you off on 150 mg T every 2 weeks.....go figure!</p><p></p><p>Let's light you up on T for the first few days then take you on a f**king rollercoaster ride and we will be sure to have you back to being hypogonadal well before the 2-week mark!</p><p></p><p>F**king shameful.</p><p></p><p>Sorry, you had to experience this.</p><p></p><p>There is light at the end of the tunnel.</p><p></p><p>Keep your head up things will work out for the best.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="madman, post: 209809, member: 13851"] [I][B]This is all very good, helpful info! I understand your point on FT being the more important marker, and I'm hopeful to get to a protocol that puts me in a good spot, perhaps 25-35ng. Regarding "Still too high a starting dose seeing as 120 mg T every 5 days would be 168 mg T/week," my rationale was based on 150mg putting me at 319ng on day 7 post-injection. But, as you and Systemlord have pointed out, by increasing injection frequency my blood serum levels will hopefully balance out, leading to 500+ng at trough with 100-120mg/wk...and likely even more achievable with 70-85mg/5days, let alone 50-60mg/3.5days. I'd like to start with trying 70mg/5days, if I can find a doctor within my insurance network that will support me with this, keeping the possibility open to the 50-60mg/3.5days that you've recommended; I don't disagree with you that 3.5days would be better for outcome, but I do want to balance outcome with frequency.[/B][/I] [B][I]Increasing the frequency will also likely allow my SHBG to increase some, but that will most probably still mean a SHBG of <10, like it was on gel, before current protocol crushed it to 2 at last labs.[/I][/B] I only recommended splitting your overall weekly dose 100-120mg T (50-60 mg every 3.5 days) seeing as you seem to be dead set on avoiding more frequent injections. Even then seeing as your SHBG is absurdly low then injecting daily or EOD would most likely be more effective. If you are dead set on less frequent injections (every 5-7 days) then give it a go. Most that end up struggling with such protocols, especially in cases of lowish/low SHBG end up switching over to more frequent injections whether daily or EOD using lower doses of T. I stated previously men with lowish/low SHBG can get away with running a lower TT and still achieve a healthy let alone high FT level. With an SHBG 10 nmol/L, you can easily hit a high FT with a TT 800 ng/dL. [B][I]I also plan to switch to 27g x 1.25" needles, so that I'm still able to bury the oil quite deeply IM; I'll get some 1cc barrels, per your advice. My doctor has me injecting into quads, not butt. I load with 18g, and then switch to injection needle. You have piqued my interest in using 29g x 0.5", though. I wonder if the benefits of 29 v 27 would outweigh disadvantage of 0.5 v 1.25"...It seems my body flushes through the T quite quickly, with my super low SHBG, and I've read IM release is slower than subq. Also, my body fat is somewhat high, so I'm not sure if a 0.5" would still even make it to shallow IM.[/I][/B] There should be no difference in the absorption let alone effectiveness whether injecting deep vs shallow IM. Whether one chooses to inject strictly IM (deep/shallow) or subcutaneously the needle length used comes down to where you plan on injecting/how much adipose. If anything the main difference between sub-q vs IM would be that absorption may be slower when injecting subcutaneously but this point would be moot depending on half-life/injection frequency. When injecting strictly IM or sub-q keep in mind the esterified T used whether (short, medium, or long) that the main role of the ester is to control the release rate of the prodrug (esterified T) from the oily depot. When injecting esterified T (propionate, enanthate, cypionate, decanoate, undecanoate, or mixed esters) it is not active until it is cleaved which mainly happens when it enters the bloodstream as it is rapidly hydrolyzed by esterase enzymes and all that you are left with is pure T. [B]CONCLUSIONS[/B] [I][B]It is interesting to realize that drug absorption from an oil depot cannot entirely be described by a simple two-phase mass transfer model where concentration gradients, diffusion, and partition coefficients would enable the calculation of the expected absorption. It is demonstrated in this dissertation that there is a role of the excipient BOH in yielding an initially high absorption. [U]The oil depot forms a continuous phase after injection but will be dispersed and encapsulated at the injection site after some days[/U]. [U]This in turn largely influences the way the prodrug becomes available; after release from the oil depot, it is present in the interstitial fluid which is drained through the lymph into the systemic circulation[/U]. [U]Subsequently, the prodrug permeates through the wall of blood cells and is hydrolyzed[/U].[/B] [B]Both the lymph transport and the cell wall permeation take time which is expressed in a lag time. [U]This lag time is different for each injection site[/U]: [U]a subcutaneously administered prodrug[/U] will enter the systemic circulation via a short path and at a low drainage flow. This results in a short lag time and a slow absorption rate constant of the prodrug. [U]Deeper administered prodrugs[/U] (i.e. intramuscular injections) are suggested to be absorbed via a longer path, but at a higher flow, which results in a longer lag time but a higher absorption rate constant of the prodrug.[/B][/I] [ATTACH type="full" alt="Screenshot (8143).png"]16943[/ATTACH] [B]Figure 7.2: Schematic overview of the new insights into drug absorption from oil depots. After release from the oil depot (yellow circle at the injection site), the prodrug is transferred towards the central compartment via the lymphatic system. Here, it will be hydrolyzed to the active substance (see circle). ka = absorption rate constant; ke = elimination rate constant.[/B] [I][B]First things first, though. I need to find a competent, progressive doctor to guide me on my TRT path, who is covered by my insurance (finances are very tight - hypogonadism has been really hard on me...I haven't been able to work...no energy, no drive, super high anxiety, and depressed mood).[/B][/I] [B][I]Thanks again for your advice and support![/I][/B] Most end up paying out of pocket when it comes to being treated by a doctor in the know. You stepped into a mess from the get-go wasting all this time only to end up no better off. [I][B] I was started out on 40.5mg gel, then increased to 81mg, but even at 81mg my T levels didn't exceed 250ng/dl. My endocrinologist refused to increase dose or switch to injections, so I changed to a different endocrinologist in May '21, who agreed that I should move to [U]IM injections, and started me on 150mg/2weeks testosterone cypionate[/U].[/B][/I] The idiot started you off on 150 mg T every 2 weeks.....go figure! Let's light you up on T for the first few days then take you on a f**king rollercoaster ride and we will be sure to have you back to being hypogonadal well before the 2-week mark! F**king shameful. Sorry, you had to experience this. There is light at the end of the tunnel. Keep your head up things will work out for the best. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Share this page
Facebook
Twitter
Reddit
Pinterest
Tumblr
WhatsApp
Email
Share
Link
Sponsors
Forums
How to Use This Forum and Introductions
Introductions
43 Year-old Male's TRT Journey
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
Accept
Learn more…
Top