Are E2 Tests Useless??

[Phil Goodman]

I’m sure many here have seen a lot of the videos from the TRT Optimization guys, and I will say they put out a lot of good information. One thing I’ve wondered about lately is the claim that it’s pointless to check E2 due it being a paracrine hormone. I understand the desire to to move away from AIs because for the vast majority they aren’t needed, but it seems like they are making the pendulum swing too far the other way because a lot of people who parrot them interpret “you shouldn’t take an AI” as “you shouldn’t worry about estrogen”. And yes there are lots of benefits from optimal estrogen levels, but at the same time there surely has to be a balance. It just seems weird that some are willing to resort to injecting every day and even adding cream on top of it to dial in one hormone while completely ignoring or attempting to manipulate in any way another impactful hormone. But back to the question…do you think it’s true that E2 tests are meaningless due to the nature of the hormone??

 

[Systemlord]

I honestly don't know what my estrogen is on my Jatenzo protocol, but in going by past experiences, my CBC and higher Total T than I'm used to, it's got to be high and that's fine by me.

 

[tareload]

Does Estrogen Make Me Fat? What about Fertility?

Hmmm. One example in the brain just for you. Nice study exploring peripheral E2 vs brain levels. In Men, Peripheral Estradiol Levels Directly Reflect the Action of Estrogens at the Hypothalamo-Pituitary Level to Inhibit Gonadotropin Secretion What conclusions do the author’s draw? E2 may be...

forums.t-nation.com

Does Estrogen Make Me Fat? What about Fertility?

Inhibition of luteinizing hormone secretion by testosterone in men requires aromatization for its pituitary but not its hypothalamic effects: evidence from the tandem study of normal and gonadotropin-releasing hormone-deficient men The demonstration in this study that circulating E2 can modify...

forums.t-nation.com

Does Estrogen Make Me Fat? What about Fertility?

False as demonstrated by studies I posted above. Both studies above are interventional studies.

forums.t-nation.com

@Phil Goodman you are much more charitable than I. These may be of interest (the whole thread reasonably entertaining). May be useful the next time someone argues blood E2 levels are not representative of tissue levels or indicative of tissue action.

For those keeping track enackers is former F***book TOT Admin and you can guess who carma is. Aka robroy aka yeti308 aka you know who.

Dude actually thinly veiled threatened me for libel. What a medical provider. To think this guy is an MD.


@Nelson Vergel @Dr Justin Saya MD maybe you will find this post interesting:

Does Estrogen Make Me Fat? What about Fertility?

Hey Tareload, I spoke specifically with the author of this article in Florida just two months ago. I had a very specific conversation with doctor Ramasamy after he presented this article. Guess what? His statement was that he doesn’t feel the increase in hematocrit is harmful on testosterone...

forums.t-nation.com

I wonder who should be worried about mentioning certain people or quoting them on the internet?

Could this really be a practicing MD in the TOT space...?

Does Estrogen Make Me Fat? What about Fertility?

Because we know so… Dummy

forums.t-nation.com

Does Estrogen Make Me Fat? What about Fertility?

Tareload I will leave you at this since you obviously have no true education or knowledge in medicine. I think Ricky Gervais describes you perfectly “when you’re dead you don’t know your dead, its only painful to others. The same applies when you are stupid”. You are no longer worth my time

forums.t-nation.com

 

[bixt]

One thing I’ve wondered about lately is the claim that it’s pointless to check E2 due it being a paracrine hormone.

So in other words these guys are claiming that E2 then is NOT an endocrine hormone?

 

[bixt]

It just seems weird that some are willing to resort to injecting every day and even adding cream on top of it to dial in one hormone while completely ignoring or attempting to manipulate in any way another impactful hormone.

Its not weird at all. The cream is not dialling in one hormone, but rather drastically increasing a second hormone - DHT - which in turn is antagonising at the receptor level a third hormone, E2!

 

[equel]

Check e2 ffs.

 

[Phil Goodman]

Its not weird at all. The cream is not dialling in one hormone, but rather drastically increasing a second hormone - DHT - which in turn is antagonising at the receptor level a third hormone, E2!

Perhaps I worded that poorly. It’s not weird that a person would do that stuff to make their protocol work best for them. It’s weird to think that your balls could be problematic, your hypothalamus could be problematic, and even when supplementing you have to do it in a very particular way due to all of the processes in your body impacting your “rollercoaster” while assuming that the aromatization process in your body will always operate in a way that’s best for you so you should never consider it as a potential issue.

 

[bixt]

while assuming that the aromatization process in your body will always operate in a way that’s best for you so you should never consider it as a potential issue.

Yes absolutely, I agree. According to them, homeostasis miraculously works perfectly for every individual with regards to E2, while broken in every other respect.

 

[FunkOdyssey]

I think it is probable that in most people, the expression of aromatase enzyme is well regulated in a manner that supports your overall best interests. I wouldn't go so far as to guarantee that is the case at all times in all people.

Also, I wouldn't assume that the majority of people with secondary hypogonadism are "broken". There may be legitimate reasons why your body is not asking for the level of testosterone that you would like, though we might be unaware of them.

 

[Phil Goodman]

I think it is probable that in most people, the expression of aromatase enzyme is well regulated in a manner that supports your overall best interests. I wouldn't go so far as to guarantee that is the case at all times in all people.

Also, I wouldn't assume that the majority of people with secondary hypogonadism are "broken". There may be legitimate reasons why your body is not asking for the level of testosterone that you would like, though we might be unaware of them.

A big reason, though I wouldn’t call it “legitimate” as far as the body is concerned is the fact that our bodies are bombarded with EDCs constantly in today’s environment. We know that it is dropping testosterone levels in men(and women) and increasing estrogen in men(and women). So it seems that could be another thing to consider when evaluating the processes in the body when it comes to aromatization.



And ftr I think the vast majority of men should avoid AIs. But i do think there are other ways to optimize your aromatization(losing fat if obese, tailoring your protocol for your own body, eating a good diet, etc.) and some people have taken such a dogmatic anti-AI approach that they seem to want to completely ignore that aspect. Again, sure I can get on board with telling people they should probably avoid AIs, but it looks like the pendulum may be swinging too far the other way.

 

[bixt]

as far as the body is concerned is the fact that our bodies are bombarded with EDCs constantly in today’s environment

Yes. Also we are bombarded with oher things. Office work and a sendentary couch lifestyle contributes the the body "asking for less T".

One day somebody should do a study on:

plumbers/electricians/mechanics/construction guys VS accountants and office people and check such things as T, E2, LH (so we can see how much T is being demanded).

I can predict the results of this study already.

Perhaps many cases of secondary hypogonadism can be cured with a complete and utter change of lifestyle.

What about former office workers in Ukraine? Complete change of lifestyle and many are now fighters. Wonder how this has affected LH (body asking for more T) and therefore T. I dont mean this example in bad taste. Genuinely, throwing out there a real situation which I predict would have drastic changes in guys who were "secondary"

 

[Gman86]

Yes. Also we are bombarded with oher things. Office work and a sendentary couch lifestyle contributes the the body "asking for less T".

One day somebody should do a study on:

plumbers/electricians/mechanics/construction guys VS accountants and office people and check such things as T, E2, LH (so we can see how much T is being demanded).

I can predict the results of this study already.

Perhaps many cases of secondary hypogonadism can be cured with a complete and utter change of lifestyle.

What about former office workers in Ukraine? Complete change of lifestyle and many are now fighters. Wonder how this has affected LH (body asking for more T) and therefore T. I dont mean this example in bad taste. Genuinely, throwing out there a real situation which I predict would have drastic changes in guys who were "secondary"

That would be pretty interesting. Same with with guys growing up in really rough neighborhoods where gangs and violence are very common, or guys in prison where danger is around u 24/7. I’m sure men in these situations have considerably higher testosterone levels than the average male. So I agree, don’t think we need studies to predict the results, but would still be really interesting to see how drastic of a difference there was

 

[Gladiator]

I’m sure many here have seen a lot of the videos from the TRT Optimization guys, and I will say they put out a lot of good information. One thing I’ve wondered about lately is the claim that it’s pointless to check E2 due it being a paracrine hormone. I understand the desire to to move away from AIs because for the vast majority they aren’t needed, but it seems like they are making the pendulum swing too far the other way because a lot of people who parrot them interpret “you shouldn’t take an AI” as “you shouldn’t worry about estrogen”. And yes there are lots of benefits from optimal estrogen levels, but at the same time there surely has to be a balance. It just seems weird that some are willing to resort to injecting every day and even adding cream on top of it to dial in one hormone while completely ignoring or attempting to manipulate in any way another impactful hormone. But back to the question…do you think it’s true that E2 tests are meaningless due to the nature of the hormone??

If you want to believe what them clowns say the good luck to you.

You know the meaning behind malpractice?
That’s the Facebook group

 

[equel]

Ye they funny. They refuse to check estrogen, however, they Will blame it on thyroid, zinc, freaking vitamin D levels, or why not the moon not aligning correctly with the stars everytime a person says he got the classic high e2 symptoms of bloat, noodle dick or Being overly emotional and ANYONE who have ever blasted their estrogen to Saturnus with steroids know very well Those symptoms often occur with high e2, and get resolved adding an AI.

 

[Charliebizz]

I think it is probable that in most people, the expression of aromatase enzyme is well regulated in a manner that supports your overall best interests. I wouldn't go so far as to guarantee that is the case at all times in all people.

Also, I wouldn't assume that the majority of people with secondary hypogonadism are "broken". There may be legitimate reasons why your body is not asking for the level of testosterone that you would like, though we might be unaware of them.

That was always my line of thinking. That’s why I have always tried my hardest to stay “off”of trt. Your brain lowered your t for a reason. And overriding that doesn’t always work out as planned.

That Facebook group over simplifies trt. “Just keep upping dose till symptom resolution”. Yet most of the ones telling you that. Didn’t even have low t to begin with. Like that guy Gil.

 

[Charliebizz]

Does Estrogen Make Me Fat? What about Fertility?

Hmmm. One example in the brain just for you. Nice study exploring peripheral E2 vs brain levels. In Men, Peripheral Estradiol Levels Directly Reflect the Action of Estrogens at the Hypothalamo-Pituitary Level to Inhibit Gonadotropin Secretion What conclusions do the author’s draw? E2 may be...

forums.t-nation.com

Does Estrogen Make Me Fat? What about Fertility?

Inhibition of luteinizing hormone secretion by testosterone in men requires aromatization for its pituitary but not its hypothalamic effects: evidence from the tandem study of normal and gonadotropin-releasing hormone-deficient men The demonstration in this study that circulating E2 can modify...

forums.t-nation.com

Does Estrogen Make Me Fat? What about Fertility?

False as demonstrated by studies I posted above. Both studies above are interventional studies.

forums.t-nation.com

@Phil Goodman you are much more charitable than I. These may be of interest (the whole thread reasonably entertaining). May be useful the next time someone argues blood E2 levels are not representative of tissue levels or indicative of tissue action.

For those keeping track enackers is former F***book TOT Admin and you can guess who carma is. Aka robroy aka yeti308 aka you know who.

Dude actually thinly veiled threatened me for libel. What a medical provider. To think this guy is an MD.


@Nelson Vergel @Dr Justin Saya MD maybe you will find this post interesting:

Does Estrogen Make Me Fat? What about Fertility?

Hey Tareload, I spoke specifically with the author of this article in Florida just two months ago. I had a very specific conversation with doctor Ramasamy after he presented this article. Guess what? His statement was that he doesn’t feel the increase in hematocrit is harmful on testosterone...

forums.t-nation.com

I wonder who should be worried about mentioning certain people or quoting them on the internet?

Could this really be a practicing MD in the TOT space...?

Does Estrogen Make Me Fat? What about Fertility?

Because we know so… Dummy

forums.t-nation.com

Does Estrogen Make Me Fat? What about Fertility?

Tareload I will leave you at this since you obviously have no true education or knowledge in medicine. I think Ricky Gervais describes you perfectly “when you’re dead you don’t know your dead, its only painful to others. The same applies when you are stupid”. You are no longer worth my time

forums.t-nation.com

I’ve read a lot of posts from “enackers” over on t nation. What everyone that he seems to “convince” forget when he constantly talks about blasting himself with high levels from scrotal cream got him “dialed in “ and “feeling optimal”. Is the guy had a clear thyroid problem. Like clear as day. And when he went to cream, he also started thyroid meds

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

A big reason, though I wouldn’t call it “legitimate” as far as the body is concerned is the fact that our bodies are bombarded with EDCs constantly in today’s environment. We know that it is dropping testosterone levels in men(and women) and increasing estrogen in men(and women). So it seems that could be another thing to consider when evaluating the processes in the body when it comes to aromatization.



And ftr I think the vast majority of men should avoid AIs. But i do think there are other ways to optimize your aromatization(losing fat if obese, tailoring your protocol for your own body, eating a good diet, etc.) and some people have taken such a dogmatic anti-AI approach that they seem to want to completely ignore that aspect. Again, sure I can get on board with telling people they should probably avoid AIs, but it looks like the pendulum may be swinging too far the other way.

EDCs: Yes. Girls(pre teen)develop breasts, body hair and start menstruating at 10 or 11, maybe younger. Boys have lower levels of testosterone, as do adolescent males and adult males. Low T/ED in otherwise healthy young men in their 20's. In the aforementioned issue, is it low T or high EDCs? Instead of prescribing T, would placing a young man on AI monotherapy be a better first choice?

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

I’ve read a lot of posts from “enackers” over on t nation. What everyone that he seems to “convince” forget when he constantly talks about blasting himself with high levels from scrotal cream got him “dialed in “ and “feeling optimal”. Is the guy had a clear thyroid problem. Like clear as day. And when he went to cream, he also started thyroid meds

Read many of @enackers posts and I recall that he also started on thyroid medication. Even with 'normal' thyroid numbers, someone could be secondary or have cellular resistance. Before prescribing T, thyroid should be tried.

 

[Charliebizz]

Read many of @enackers posts and I recall that he also started on thyroid medication. Even with 'normal' thyroid numbers, someone could be secondary or have cellular resistance. Before prescribing T, thyroid should be tried.

exactly. All his “feeling good” could have been from the thyroid. He had a tsh of around 5. So his numbers weren’t good at all. I’m not doubting he feels better on the cream. Cause even I had some moments of feeling pretty damn good on cream vs injections. But it wasn’t consistent for me. But I bet the biggest bang for his buck was the thyroid.

 

[JRos895]

This intracrine approach to E2 and serum testing is totally misleading and I don’t think Danny Bossa has any clue what he’s talking about. I read a Reddit post where he was arguing with a pro AI poster and Danny said “E2 is an intracrine hormone—look up what that means and tell me why AIs should be used”. He was clearly trying to shift the burden of proof because he doesn’t know what “intracrine” is.

Yes, E2 is an “intracrine hormone” but so are almost all steroid hormones in the body, testosterone included. If it was useless to measure E2, it would also be useless to measure testosterone or progesterone.

The serum levels are still helpful to know because the serum levels are like the highway for hormones. If the highway is jammed with traffic, there is a very strong chance the freeways and local roads will have strong traffic too.

Finasteride for example reduces serum DHT levels by 61%, but reduces hair follicle DHT levels by 65%, so a very close reduction. So just because DHT has intracrine action does not mean that it’s not helpful to know serum levels.