Took a lesson from sh1972

Thread starter #1
So I have been having issues with dialing in my regimen. I have been on high doses , through AI’s, and recently just cruising on the standard split dosage of 100mg total weekly. About 3 weeks ago I switched to 20mg EOD, which equals 70mg a week. Surprisingly I have started to feel much better. I first thought it was due to the EOD schedule, but then I did try that awhile back but this was at 24mg EOD....which was about the standard 100mg a week. I am thinking most of us that are having issues many years into TRT could be from we just do not need to have our levels that high. I have blood draw scheduled next week to see where my numbers are at. Before TRT my total T was was in the 300’s ....even if I test out and only have a total T of 600 .....that is still a 100% increase of where I was. I have recently been testing out at 700-900 over the years...even been as high as 1200 before. So I’m hoping low dose is the trick.
 
#2
So I have been having issues with dialing in my regimen. I have been on high doses , through AI's, and recently just cruising on the standard split dosage of 100mg total weekly. About 3 weeks ago I switched to 20mg EOD, which equals 70mg a week. Surprisingly I have started to feel much better. I first thought it was due to the EOD schedule, but then I did try that awhile back but this was at 24mg EOD....which was about the standard 100mg a week. I am thinking most of us that are having issues many years into TRT could be from we just do not need to have our levels that high. I have blood draw scheduled next week to see where my numbers are at. Before TRT my total T was was in the 300's ....even if I test out and only have a total T of 600 .....that is still a 100% increase of where I was. I have recently been testing out at 700-900 over the years...even been as high as 1200 before. So I'm hoping low dose is the trick.


You have been a member since 2015 and you are just figuring this out now?

It has been stated many times on here high doses of testosterone are not needed for trt!

Too many are misinformed thinking higher levels are better, higher levels are needed to feel my best, and the temptation to build muscle/gain strength!
 
Thread starter #3
Ummmm...ok . My dosage for most of my years has been 100mg a week. Which would be considered the lowest starting dose by most. I was with defy and they had me at 120mg a week and then 140mg week plus AIs. I tried myself 90mg a week...likely still was to high. Now at the 70mg a week I am feeling a lot better. Can you point out where most users on here claim that 70mg - 80mg is the recommended dose? My T levels were between 700-900 would not be considered high by most on here.. Defy even wanted me closer to the top of the reference range. These were the times I was at 1000-1200. I guess I just been clueless since 2015.....thanks for your input.
 
#4
Ummmm...ok . My dosage for most of my years has been 100mg a week. Which would be considered the lowest starting dose by most. I was with defy and they had me at 120mg a week and then 140mg week plus AIs. I tried myself 90mg a week...likely still was to high. Now at the 70mg a week I am feeling a lot better. Can you point out where most users on here claim that 70mg - 80mg is the recommended dose? My T levels were between 700-900 would not be considered high by most on here.. Defy even wanted me closer to the top of the reference range. These were the times I was at 1000-1200. I guess I just been clueless since 2015.....thanks for your input.
What is your TT and FT at 70mg ? I too have reduced quite a bit my dosage and feeling great with TT in the 700s. What is your HCT and E2?
 
Thread starter #5
My blood draw is Thursday next week. My e2 on the 100mg weekly has always been between 29-31 on the LC/MS test. HCT is usually 44-47. When I was on the higher dose E2 rose to 40-45. Went on the AI and it fell to 20-25(felt like crap) I then left defy after about 18 months and went back to my original prescribing doc. I do take HCG at a low dose of 250iu every 4 days. It just clicked in my head when sh1972 posted about his dose. My strength actually seems better at the lower dose. I always felt tense, sore, and on edge....sleep was awful to. Maybe my body is sensitive to androgens. I’m guessing maybe I need to be between 500-700. So we will see how it goes.
 
#6
Ummmm...ok . My dosage for most of my years has been 100mg a week. Which would be considered the lowest starting dose by most. I was with defy and they had me at 120mg a week and then 140mg week plus AIs. I tried myself 90mg a week...likely still was to high. Now at the 70mg a week I am feeling a lot better. Can you point out where most users on here claim that 70mg - 80mg is the recommended dose? My T levels were between 700-900 would not be considered high by most on here.. Defy even wanted me closer to the top of the reference range. These were the times I was at 1000-1200. I guess I just been clueless since 2015.....thanks for your input.
Working with my nurse at Defy she allowed me to experiment to see how low I could go before I felt something was missing. It is a slow process since every protocol change requires a minimum of 40 days to reach steady state and a mini blood test to get a peak at where you are. But I found it interesting and challenging. It's a great learning tool so you can find out how TRT works for you and it looks like you have found this as well. That is great news.
 
#7
Too many are misinformed thinking higher levels are better, higher levels are needed to feel my best, and the temptation to build muscle/gain strength!
I see this as well. Here and other forums. Many think if they can just get a trough of TT1000 and FT over the reference range is like a mini cycle and monstrous gains will follow. An from following these guys posts month after month they all end badly with crashed E2s do to OD'ing AI, backacne, high blood pressure with high HCT. Its the same story over and over again.
 
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#8
I couldn't even manage a Total T of 677, FT (Direct) was 29.2 and a sensitive E2 70.6, no thanks! I'm going to be one of those that's going to feel good in the 500's.
 
#9
So where was your Free T and E2 at when you guys felt good? Zooka I know u haven't had ur labs done at the lower dosage yet, but how about you other guys? Healthman, Feelinglost? I'd also be curious what ur current protocols are. I'm also considering lowering my dose a little, curious what u guys are all doing and where ur numbers are landing.
 
#10
I am on 50mg Testosterone cypionate / 500IU HCG / 50 IU FSH E3.5 days. My TT was low 700, FT (direct) mid to high 20s and E2 low 30. My SHBG is low 20s and i am prone to gyno if my E2 goes above mid 20s low 30s. So i added 0.125mg anastrozole twice a week. I will have a consultation soon with defy. I might consider experimenting with lower dosage but not sure. I am feeling great and i think i have experimented a lot lately. As long as my hematocrit stays put i think i will keep this protocol
 
#11
So where was your Free T and E2 at when you guys felt good? Zooka I know u haven't had ur labs done at the lower dosage yet, but how about you other guys? Healthman, Feelinglost? I'd also be curious what ur current protocols are. I'm also considering lowering my dose a little, curious what u guys are all doing and where ur numbers are landing.
Well for me as it turns out 18 months into this my window of feeling good to great is pretty wide but my HCT and ferritin suffer if I run my numbers too high. I owe this to having a low SHGB (24-33) I get a big bang for my buck and don't really need big doses of T cyp to get my TT and FT on the hi side of normal.

Sorry I could not give you a more definitive answer.
 
#12
Ummmm...ok . My dosage for most of my years has been 100mg a week. Which would be considered the lowest starting dose by most. I was with defy and they had me at 120mg a week and then 140mg week plus AIs. I tried myself 90mg a week...likely still was to high. Now at the 70mg a week I am feeling a lot better. Can you point out where most users on here claim that 70mg - 80mg is the recommended dose? My T levels were between 700-900 would not be considered high by most on here.. Defy even wanted me closer to the top of the reference range. These were the times I was at 1000-1200. I guess I just been clueless since 2015.....thanks for your input.
I misunderstood thinking when you stated high doses you meant 200mg.....I should have asked what dose you were using.

As in your 1st post you state "I have been on HIGH doses, through AI's and recently just CRUISING on the standard split dosage of 100mg total weekly"

Using the words high doses and than cruising made me think you were using high doses 200/200+ as no one cruises on trt unless they are blasting/cruising.

Most would think when one says cruising that they were previously using high doses.

My apologies for not asking more specifics before commenting!
 
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#13
Ummmm...ok . My dosage for most of my years has been 100mg a week. Which would be considered the lowest starting dose by most. I was with defy and they had me at 120mg a week and then 140mg week plus AIs. I tried myself 90mg a week...likely still was to high. Now at the 70mg a week I am feeling a lot better. Can you point out where most users on here claim that 70mg - 80mg is the recommended dose? My T levels were between 700-900 would not be considered high by most on here.. Defy even wanted me closer to the top of the reference range. These were the times I was at 1000-1200. I guess I just been clueless since 2015.....thanks for your input.
Knowing this now I would say it is great that you are one who can get away with using a lower dose 80mg or less/week than the standard 100mg/week trt dose .....mind you I would think most using such a low dose of testosterone are also either taking hgc or would need hcg as it stimulates ITT (intra -testicular testosterone) and will contribute to higher testosterone levels.
 
#14
We can add another layer of complexity here with androgen receptor sensitivity (CAG repeats) and also possible down-regulation over time of androgen receptors, neurotransmitter response, etc —— thus, TRT treatment for any given individual is an ever-evolving process over time...consequently the need for regular monitoring of both levels AND subjective response and the resultant regimen adjustments.
 
#15
We can add another layer of complexity here with androgen receptor sensitivity (CAG repeats) and also possible down-regulation over time of androgen receptors, neurotransmitter response, etc —— thus, TRT treatment for any given individual is an ever-evolving process over time...consequently the need for regular monitoring of both levels AND subjective response and the resultant regimen adjustments.
Can anyone elaborate on what Dr. Saya wrote above, particularly the part I put in bold? Do guys on TRT long term see down-regulation of androgen receptors?
 
#16
Can anyone elaborate on what Dr. Saya wrote above, particularly the part I put in bold? Do guys on TRT long term see down-regulation of androgen receptors?
We don’t really know. Anecdotally I would say that it appears not likely at physiologic levels. As with any downregulation in the body, even if a reality, we would be concerned mostly with sustained supraphysiologic levels as an etiology.
 
#17
Can anyone elaborate on what Dr. Saya wrote above, particularly the part I put in bold? Do guys on TRT long term see down-regulation of androgen receptors?
We don't really know. Anecdotally I would say that it appears not likely at physiologic levels. As with any downregulation in the body, even if a reality, we would be concerned mostly with sustained supraphysiologic levels as an etiology.
So it sure sounds like guys who run supraphysiologic levels for a long time have a very good chance of down-regulating their androgen receptors. That doesn't sound good.
 
#19
just dont run supraphysiologic levels and you will be fine
I believe my peaks are in the 1400s with FT about 10 points over top of range, and troughs in the 800s with FT just at/below top of range. I would assume that having my TT/FT slightly above range at peak would not be considered supraphysiologic.

Just out of curiosity, what would be considered the cut off point above which levels would be considered supraphysiologic?
 
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#20
I personally don’t know, and would be curious as well. Also, do u guys think having supraphysiologic free t would cause more down regulation over time than total t? Assuming down regulation is even a thing with slightly supraphysiologic testosterone levels, like the levels seen on TRT. I feel like according to this discussion, free t might be the more important one to keep within range. Me, for example, even at supraphysiologic total t still have free t within range due to high SHBG obviously
 
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