Question, backfilling the pathways?

[giants23]

thanks for replying Healthman...You always have good advice too....My latest Sperm analysis after taking Fertilsan M Motility jumped to 70% where before it was between 4%-35% or so...Total sperm count said 7.9.. I am assuming 7.9 million but I thought she said take that number and multiply by 3?...total motile count 5.25 ...Kruger Morphology was 2% instead of above 4...They said abnormal head shape...My last bloodwork shows FSH high at 16.1....LH high at 10.4...Prolactin 14.8 and Estradiol was 6.1 but that was because of taking anastrozole pill every day for 2 weeks then I quit...3 months Before that it was 25.9...Testosterone said 317....Free Testosterone 20.3...TSH 3.5...When I was on HCG the LH and FSH were like 2.4 low...then just taking clomid only it spiked up high so I think I am functioning...I just wish my T level was normal without all this crap...I have NEVER felt better than when I was on Tshot every 2-3 weeks with high of mid 800's and low before next shot was 579....The protocol of t shot twice a week and HCG 500IUI didn't work at all for me and tanked my motility to zero...Clomid by itself was the only thing that helped unless I try HCG with clomid again...HCG spiked my T level but my libido didn't go up until they shot me from 2500iui per shot to a whopping 5000 IUI PER shot 2-3 times a week...I only read 500 is what you need on here...At a loss on what to improve or try...If FSH is high not sure it would help to take it even tho others got there wife pregnant doing it...Some off of anastrozole and some off of clomid...Why doesn't Clomid spike me up to 700 like a lot of other people...I was packed full of muscle 5 ft 9 180lbs until 2013...Now off of T shot Im 204lbs with a gut I want to get rid of but still feel pretty athletic

 

[HealthMan]

thanks for replying Healthman...You always have good advice too....My latest Sperm analysis after taking Fertilsan M Motility jumped to 70% where before it was between 4%-35% or so...Total sperm count said 7.9.. I am assuming 7.9 million but I thought she said take that number and multiply by 3?...total motile count 5.25 ...Kruger Morphology was 2% instead of above 4...They said abnormal head shape...My last bloodwork shows FSH high at 16.1....LH high at 10.4...Prolactin 14.8 and Estradiol was 6.1 but that was because of taking anastrozole pill every day for 2 weeks then I quit...3 months Before that it was 25.9...Testosterone said 317....Free Testosterone 20.3...TSH 3.5...When I was on HCG the LH and FSH were like 2.4 low...then just taking clomid only it spiked up high so I think I am functioning...I just wish my T level was normal without all this crap...I have NEVER felt better than when I was on Tshot every 2-3 weeks with high of mid 800's and low before next shot was 579....The protocol of t shot twice a week and HCG 500IUI didn't work at all for me and tanked my motility to zero...Clomid by itself was the only thing that helped unless I try HCG with clomid again...HCG spiked my T level but my libido didn't go up until they shot me from 2500iui per shot to a whopping 5000 IUI PER shot 2-3 times a week...I only read 500 is what you need on here...At a loss on what to improve or try...If FSH is high not sure it would help to take it even tho others got there wife pregnant doing it...Some off of anastrozole and some off of clomid...Why doesn't Clomid spike me up to 700 like a lot of other people...I was packed full of muscle 5 ft 9 180lbs until 2013...Now off of T shot Im 204lbs with a gut I want to get rid of but still feel pretty athletic

Maybe the sperm count was per ml. Not terrible if that is the case. How long were you on clomid only when you got this sperm analysis done? If not long enough you could try to stay on it for longer and keep using that supplement that seems to be helping. Another alternative would be go back to TRT + HCG + FSH. Not the best alternative if regaining fertility asap is your priority

 

[giants23]

Maybe the sperm count was per ml. Not terrible if that is the case. How long were you on clomid only when you got this sperm analysis done? If not long enough you could try to stay on it for longer and keep using that supplement that seems to be helping. Another alternative would be go back to TRT + HCG + FSH. Not the best alternative if regaining fertility asap is your priority

Yes I think it was per ml...I have been on Clomid almost 3yrs...Was too afraid to try tshot and hcg again because last time I tried that in the first month it went back to 0. So I went just strictly Clomid...It immediately came back up...it's just so weird because HCG with it did not help at all but without it, just the clomid worked...I'm just wondering if my body had to recover first and then HCG and Clomid may work but have not gone back to it... After 2 years straight on Clomid it always very between 4% motility to 35% but generally it was around 24...I was doing a sperm analysis each month at this fertility place for a year and only until I started this Fertilsan M after reading all the reviews My motility skyrocketed triple what it was almost and only a month-and-a-half on Fertilsan M with Clomid and now I've been on it 3 months.... We'll have to see what happens...don't know if I go back to one pill a day instead of every other day if it makes a difference...

 

[HealthMan]

Yes I think it was per ml...I have been on Clomid almost 3yrs...Was too afraid to try tshot and hcg again because last time I tried that in the first month it went back to 0. So I went just strictly Clomid...It immediately came back up...it's just so weird because HCG with it did not help at all but without it, just the clomid worked...I'm just wondering if my body had to recover first and then HCG and Clomid may work but have not gone back to it... After 2 years straight on Clomid it always very between 4% motility to 35% but generally it was around 24...I was doing a sperm analysis each month at this fertility place for a year and only until I started this Fertilsan M after reading all the reviews My motility skyrocketed triple what it was almost and only a month-and-a-half on Fertilsan M with Clomid and now I've been on it 3 months.... We'll have to see what happens...don't know if I go back to one pill a day instead of every other day if it makes a difference...

Have you been able to make your wife pregnant during these 3 years?

 

[giants23]

Have you been able to make your wife pregnant during these 3 years?

No...It was only around October 1st of this ur that my counts went way up on sperm...the last 3yrs there was no pregnancy...it blows my mind but I was in extremely good shape and maybe my body was still producing it despite me taking T shots... I managed to get two people pregnant with one of them being the first and only time while on a tshot...go figure..n now nothing but my counts are up for the first time... I'm kind of scared to add HCG back in unless it will push me over the edge to get even more sperm. The last time I tried that though it went backwards unless again that was because my body hadn't recovered originally yet. I don't know maybe one of the doctors or Dr. Saya may have something else to add...Or Nelson

 

[DragonBits]

It would be interesting if you knew this value while on HCG:

17 - OH Progesterone : HCG + TRT Efficacy Predictor

Nelson, I have a question about 17-oh progesterone?

In your video on HCG you stated 17-oh progesterone is derived from pregnenolone and that pregnenolone declines with TRT.

But if someone supplements with pregnenolone, won't that result in a higher level of 17-oh progesterone regardless of HCG and skew the results? (I would imagine there won't be an increase in ITT as 17-oh progesterone was increased by supplementing with pregnenolone and not by HCG/LH stimulation)

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Hi DragonBits

Good question.

If you click on the diagram in this link, you will see some yellow stars where enzymes are needed to convert pregnenolone to downstream hormones. These enzymes are activated by LH. When we are on TRT, LH and FSH are suppressed. hCG mimics LH and activates these enzymes when dosed at 350-500 IU three times per week plus background TRT (gels, creams, injections, pellets, nasal, etc)

Sex hormone synthesis, regulation, and function

In the absence of hCG, men on TRT who take pregnenolone will see a rise in pregnenolone but won't improve downstream hormones since those enzymes are not activated.

 

[DragonBits]

Hi DragonBits

Good question.

If you click on the diagram in this link, you will see some yellow stars where enzymes are needed to convert pregnenolone to downstream hormones. These enzymes are activated by LH. When we are on TRT, LH and FSH are suppressed. hCG mimics LH and activates these enzymes when dosed at 350-500 IU three times per week plus background TRT (gels, creams, injections, pellets, nasal, etc)

Sex hormone synthesis, regulation, and function

In the absence of hCG, men on TRT who take pregnenolone will see a rise in pregnenolone but won't improve downstream hormones since those enzymes are not activated.

Thanks Nelson, that is useful to know.

I see I can order blood tests for aldosterone serum or urine, 17-OH Progesterone LC/MS and Progesterone.

Not sure, why test 17-OH Progesterone Vs progesterone?

Wouldn’t the end result of progesterone be aldosterone. So if aldosterone is in a good range, wouldn’t it imply that the other upstream hormones were working OK?

BTW, I sometimes wonder if my aldosterone is on the low side, because it helps to regulate potassium and my potassium is often a little high. (this was with or without HCG, before and after TRT). I am thinking of adding that to my next blood test.

 

[Gianluca]

Hi DragonBits

Good question.

If you click on the diagram in this link, you will see some yellow stars where enzymes are needed to convert pregnenolone to downstream hormones. These enzymes are activated by LH. When we are on TRT, LH and FSH are suppressed. hCG mimics LH and activates these enzymes when dosed at 350-500 IU three times per week plus background TRT (gels, creams, injections, pellets, nasal, etc)

Sex hormone synthesis, regulation, and function

In the absence of hCG, men on TRT who take pregnenolone will see a rise in pregnenolone but won't improve downstream hormones since those enzymes are not activated.

This is interesting, on 125iU daily of HCG my !7-OH Progesterone was below range, I this month stopped the HCG and started a 100mg Pregnelonone RX, which I feel is working well better than HCG, I have a follow up blood work on Pregnelonone/Progesterone/DHEA in a month, curios to see the results

 

[Gianluca]

If HCG did act to mimic LH and would spur that downstream hormonal cascade/conversion then no one would need to take DHEA/Preg/et al.., Obviously either HCG does not (fully) mimic the lost LH there, or, there's an enzyme(?) problem that otherwise isn't being addressed.

Personally 350Iu 3x week a couple of years ago did not raise my Pregnelonone LC/MS, I feel a great work that oral pregnelononone is doing vs HCG,

 

[DragonBits]

HCG should increase Pregnenolone which because of HCG stimulation will get converted to progesterone.

One action of progesterone is to reduce 5-alpha reductase activity which decrease DHT.

So I guess at least one result of using HCG to backfill the pathways results in lower DHT.

That's the way I read the diagram.

So is lowering DHT a good or bad thing?

 

[Gianluca]

HCG should increase Pregnenolone which because of HCG stimulation will get converted to progesterone.

One action of progesterone is to reduce 5-alpha reductase activity which decrease DHT.

So I guess at least one result of using HCG to backfill the pathways results in lower DHT.

That's the way I read the diagram.

So is lowering DHT a good or bad thing?

I believe that when the body is given the raw material to covert hormones it will decide as needed which pathway to go, I don't think either taking HCG or Pregnelonone would cause so much decrease is DHT to the point of being a "bad thing".

But good point on it, acne is another issue I have started developing about a year after TRT, when possibly my Pregnelonone started to go lower and lower

 

[DragonBits]

I believe that when the body is given the raw material to covert hormones it will decide as needed which pathway to go, I don't think either taking HCG or Pregnelonone would cause so much decrease is DHT to the point of being a "bad thing".

But good point on it, acne is another issue I have started developing about a year after TRT, when possibly my Pregnelonone started to go lower and lower

I have read a lot of thinking that it's better to drive DHT to near the top of the range. (I don't have an opinion of that)

Some men report negative results with HCG. I was not really aware that back filling the pathways would likely cause a decline in DHT, perhaps this is the reason for that.

Personally, I don't think for me DHT being higher or lower (but it was still in range) made a lot of difference to how I felt, some studies have indicated high DHT is harmless. Other indications are that lowering DHT too much can be negative for libido. Low DHT seems to shrink the prostate, however high DHT doesn't seem to cause it to grow.

But I am not that confident our bodies will " covert hormones it will decide as needed" especially considering at the very least we are all already interfering with our bodies natural production of testosterone by supplementing it. And as we age our bodies ability to convert tends to degrade for some hormones while not for others. Not to mention throwing in other hormones like DHEA, melatonin, pregnelonone, hcg, progesterone, thyroid hormones and supplements that can either decrease or increase enzymes that help to convert hormones. I am not sure one can predict what results / feedbacks come from their particular cocktail. I know not everyone adds in every hormone I mentioned, but many do add in a number of them.

What did catch my interest was the thinking that progesterone is prostate protective.
=========================================
So what can you do about this?
It’s all about maintaining healthy levels of testosterone and progesterone. Progesterone actually inhibits 5-alpha-reductase, thus stopping the production of dihydrotestosterone.

Whereas estrogen dominance turns on an oncogene that increases the susceptibility to cancer, progesterone and testosterone activate the cancer protective gene, p53.

Protecting Your Prostate | Hotze Health & Wellness Center

I don't think we can come up with definitive answers because a lot is still unknown and it all gets to be very complex and individuals have different genetics. But that doesn't stop me from being curious about how hormones can enhance our lives and how they work.

 

[xqfq]

I was able to find at least one study which looked at some of the differences between older and younger men with HCG and "backfilling":

The aging Leydig cell: VI. Response of testosterone precursors to gonadotrophin in men. - PubMed - NCBI, "The aging Leydig cell: VI. Response of testosterone precursors to gonadotrophin in men."
(PDF may be here: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4b...4.1369775012.1562110089-1618642963.1562110089)

In the study, HCG stimulated the production of progesterone and DHEA in younger (avg. age 34) men but not in older men.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I was able to find at least one study which looked at some of the differences between older and younger men with HCG and "backfilling":

The aging Leydig cell: VI. Response of testosterone precursors to gonadotrophin in men. - PubMed - NCBI, "The aging Leydig cell: VI. Response of testosterone precursors to gonadotrophin in men."
(PDF may be here: https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4b...4.1369775012.1562110089-1618642963.1562110089)

In the study, HCG stimulated the production of progesterone and DHEA in younger (avg. age 34) men but not in older men.

Thanks for that 1982 paper.
The dose was 40 IU per Kilogram. For a 80 Kg (176 Lbs) man, that would be 3,200 IU. No men were on TRT.

We have known that HCG response is lower in older men, but this paper shows a bigger difference than I expected between young vs old men.

I wonder what progesterone and DHEA would be if this study were to be repeated using liquid chromatography and TRT background therapy. Would TRT enhance the effects of HCG on upstream hormones?

 

[xqfq]

Thanks for that 1982 paper.
The dose was 40 IU per Kilogram. For a 80 Kg (176 Lbs) man, that would be 3,200 IU. No men were on TRT.

We have known that HCG response is lower in older men, but this paper shows a bigger difference than I expected between young vs old men.

I wonder what progesterone and DHEA would be if this study were to be repeated using liquid chromatography and TRT background therapy. Would TRT enhance the effects of HCG on upstream hormones?

Another good question, based on this post (Do we really need LH, or HCG, to convert Pregnenolone to downstream Hormones?), is what would happen in these older men if they supplemented with pregnenolone while taking HCG.

I also wonder if the low level of these "upstream" hormones would also be present in someone with primary hypogonadism, or if it depends on age. My guess is that older men are more likely to be more primary, but I don't know that for sure.

 

[fifty]

My doctor told me hcg will bump up things like dhea and pregnenolone but not at trt type doses. I’m guessing that mainly happens like studies like this on a 3000iu+ dose.

 

[Gianluca]

Another good question, based on this post (Do we really need LH, or HCG, to convert Pregnenolone to downstream Hormones?), is what would happen in these older men if they supplemented with pregnenolone while taking HCG.

I also wonder if the low level of these "upstream" hormones would also be present in someone with primary hypogonadism, or if it depends on age. My guess is that older men are more likely to be more primary, but I don't know that for sure.

no, ACTH does the job as well, in fact we don't need HCG at all beside than for fertility

 

[M.J]

Congrats, I am sure it was thrilling, have you kept it up?

But I had a similar experience after ~8 months of TRT starting in 2009, at that time I only took testosterone, nothing else.

I think it would be more evident if you stopped taking DHEA and your morning wood went away. But it's probably harmless, so no reason to stop outside of curiosity.

I am surprised your levels didn't increase, mine tend to increase as soon as I supplement DHEA.

I stopped HCG, DHEA and Preg a month ago, this AM I had morning wood. Honestly, I don't think it was because I stopped, but if I were inclined I could claim that. I started a few other supplements like Turmeric, metformin on 10/17, ultra prostate formula a couple of days ago. I doubt this had anything to do with morning wood, but if I had to pick one, I would pick metformin as I have had a historic lowering of my blood glucose levels to a level I haven't seen since I started keeping tract 26 years ago.

However, like I said, back in 2010 I had a tremendous increase after ~8 months in libido, morning wood, wood off an on all day long, when i first started testosterone and my BG was about the same as it was 2 months ago and I wasn't taking anything like DHEA, HCG or metformin. Much bigger increase than anything now.

Metformin does really help with losing weight, controlling appetite and certainly it lowers my blood glucose, along with diet / exercise of course.

I am sure HCG helps with preventing testicular atrophy and fertility, for guys still producing testosterone and on TRT it likely evens out the peaks and troughs, beyond that I am not sure of the benefits.

I have always been willing to try things, but also remain a skeptic about benefits that aren't obvious in some way. Like taking CQ10, I can measure blood levels and if I take it before sleep it keeps me awake, so it does something. Now that I am on Metformin it's even more important to supplement cQ10. I take ginseng daily, but when it runs out I won't buy more, I haven't seen any benefit.

I was just curious on what hormones are backfilled in the pathway, so far Vince says Pregnenolone and DHEA.

I have used ginseng before taking anything just ginseng alone (6000mg life plan ) and I am 300% sure it lowered my estrogen by 50% over 40 days period taking daily.( did like 4 test during this time)
I have been reading it promote estrogen yet with me it actually lowered estrogen.
planning to retake it as I have seen improvements in libido moving from 20pg to 15 pg end up 9pg,when i stopped them and as I went up I saw a gain increase around 15/16
I know this cuz I immediately I did tests to see where am I.
I am concern though over long term safety and how does it really block estrogen.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Effect of TRT vs hCG/FSH on upstream hormone pathways.

The role of gonadotropins in testicular and adrenal androgen biosynthesis pathways -insights from males with congenital hypogonadotropic hypogonadism on hCG/rFSH and on testosterone replacement SUMMARY Objective: To delineate the role of gonadotropins in male androgen biosynthesis pathways...

www.excelmale.com