Need answers while I have the energy to do something about it...

Thread starter #1
I posted this in “ask the doc” but I’m posting it here too because I desperately need answers from anyone who has them. I need to figure out a plan while I actually have the energy to do something about it...

I’m going to try to be a minimalist so this post doesn’t run away from me but as an FYI I’m happy to provide more info and blood work if needed.

I have recently lost 100 pounds. I did so by ketogenic eating, working out like a mad man and sometimes intermittent fasting. No supplements. I currently weigh 280 and ALL my weight loss/hard gaining has stopped. After practically forcing my doctor to run the test my total test came back at 270. (Imagine what it was when I was 100 pounds heavier and eating a low fat diet) He refuses to do anything because 270 is “within normal reference range” even though I explained to him that the society of endocrinologists says that’s normal for an 80 year old.

I’m in my early 30’s and planning to have kids soon so impotence is not desirable to me. I don’t need to be a massive man just a healthy man with dry hard muscle would be great. I’ve done tons of research and my goal is to reach a side effect free total test level of 1,000 or more with a good healthy lipid panel.

The drugs im strongly considering are Aromasin, Enclomiphene and SR9009 for its lipid benefits more so than performance although I’ll take any advantage I can get. If that didn’t set me up nicely I would consider adding HCG or HMG.

Is this a good or acceptable strategy? I know I’m no doctor but I have to do something and I’m battling with zero energy and a grey outlook on life. I need to make a decision and I need to make it now. Please help because no doctor in my small town will.

Lastly, despite low T my libido has always been sky high. Does that signify anything relevant that I should be considering?
 
#2
Losing weight can cause your thyroid to slow your metabolism by increasing your reverse T3. I would get a complete thyroid panel with TSH, FT4, FT3, reverse T3 and antibodies. I would also get a complete testosterone panel with testosterone serum, Free T, DHEA - Sulfate, Estradiol, Sensitive, SHBG and DHT.

Total T of 270 is extremely low for any man, we have two clinics that advertise here that would treat you. Defy medical and Prime body.
 
Thread starter #3
But how would they treat me? Exogenous test doesn’t seem desirable to me as I’m supposed to have a kid next year. There’s only 1500 people in this town, I can’t rely on this doctor I have to figure this out myself.

I heard of a place called discount labs that I’m thinking of ordering through.
 
#4
Well of course with any grey market or black market meds, aside from potential legal issues, you have the problem of not being sure you're really getting what you ordered.

I just posted these in another thread but we have the Lipschultz study and also user experiences from here showing that you can go on testosterone with HCG (and FSH if budget allows) and still retain fertility, most likely, but of course no guarantees in life. Better chance if your pre-TRT sperm count isn't too low. You can order semen analysis through Discounted Labs.

Concomitant intramuscular human chorionic gonadotropin preserves spermatogenesis in men undergoing testosterone replacement therapy. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23260550

https://www.excelmale.com/showthread...to-TRT-and-hCG

https://www.excelmale.com/showthread...d-While-on-TRT
 
#5
But how would they treat me? Exogenous test doesn't seem desirable to me as I'm supposed to have a kid next year. There's only 1500 people in this town, I can't rely on this doctor I have to figure this out myself.

I heard of a place called discount labs that I'm thinking of ordering through.
Why don't you contact both Prime Body and Defy and discuss the issue with them? Gather as much information as to cost and process, and determine if you can proceed with treatment under their direction. Clearly, fertility is important to you, understandably so, yet you're considering a self-managed protocol utilizing underground pharmaceuticals. Make a few phone calls before jumping into that lake.
 
Thread starter #6
Why don't you contact both Prime Body and Defy and discuss the issue with them? Gather as much information as to cost and process, and determine if you can proceed with treatment under their direction. Clearly, fertility is important to you, understandably so, yet you're considering a self-managed protocol utilizing underground pharmaceuticals. Make a few phone calls before jumping into that lake.

Those doctors aren’t in my state, although I would rather have pharma grade stuff with doctors supervision I’m afraid I’m going to have to do this myself. My doc won’t do anything or refer me anywhere. My fiancé is a nurse and is extremely supportive. So if I can’t get treatment I at least have her as a resource.

So I am definitely still seeking a doc but I’m still curious if this protocol would work well for 2 reasons. First I don’t want exo T if I can avoid it but I also don’t want to go to a doc requesting something that is simply ineffective. Second if I can’t affordably and realistically get treatment I will do it on me own. I think it’s imoortant for me to keep in mind that being low T also loses significant risks. I can’t be complacent about it anymore. One way or the other I need a result and I want to make sure I have ALL my bases covered.
 
#7
Those doctors aren’t in my state, although I would rather have pharma grade stuff with doctors supervision I’m afraid I’m going to have to do this myself. My doc won’t do anything or refer me anywhere. My fiancé is a nurse and is extremely supportive. So if I can’t get treatment I at least have her as a resource.

So I am definitely still seeking a doc but I’m still curious if this protocol would work well for 2 reasons. First I don’t want exo T if I can avoid it but I also don’t want to go to a doc requesting something that is simply ineffective. Second if I can’t affordably and realistically get treatment I will do it on me own. I think it’s imoortant for me to keep in mind that being low T also loses significant risks. I can’t be complacent about it anymore. One way or the other I need a result and I want to make sure I have ALL my bases covered.
You don't have to be in state to use them. They will do everything over the phone. A guy in my office is on TRT and as long as he takes his HCG he remains fertile. They just had their 3rd child...
 
#8
Those doctors aren’t in my state, although I would rather have pharma grade stuff with doctors supervision I’m afraid I’m going to have to do this myself. My doc won’t do anything or refer me anywhere. My fiancé is a nurse and is extremely supportive. So if I can’t get treatment I at least have her as a resource.

So I am definitely still seeking a doc but I’m still curious if this protocol would work well for 2 reasons. First I don’t want exo T if I can avoid it but I also don’t want to go to a doc requesting something that is simply ineffective. Second if I can’t affordably and realistically get treatment I will do it on me own. I think it’s imoortant for me to keep in mind that being low T also loses significant risks. I can’t be complacent about it anymore. One way or the other I need a result and I want to make sure I have ALL my bases covered.
You don't need to live in Florida to be a Defy patient. Their tele-health model offers coverage across the country. Many members here rely on them for treatment. Give them a call.
 
#9
Those doctors aren’t in my state, although I would rather have pharma grade stuff with doctors supervision I’m afraid I’m going to have to do this myself. My doc won’t do anything or refer me anywhere. My fiancé is a nurse and is extremely supportive. So if I can’t get treatment I at least have her as a resource.

So I am definitely still seeking a doc but I’m still curious if this protocol would work well for 2 reasons. First I don’t want exo T if I can avoid it but I also don’t want to go to a doc requesting something that is simply ineffective. Second if I can’t affordably and realistically get treatment I will do it on me own. I think it’s imoortant for me to keep in mind that being low T also loses significant risks. I can’t be complacent about it anymore. One way or the other I need a result and I want to make sure I have ALL my bases covered.
Defy Medical and Prime Body are helping a lot of people on TRT via a legitimate tele-med service. The meds they prescribe and offer are not black market. They do not have to be in your state of residence. You can not go wrong with reaching out to them. They both are members of the forum, participate on it often, and have banners/ads on the forum as they are sponsors.
 
#10
I'm a patient of Defy Medical and live in Wisconsin. I use Defy Medical because I couldn't find anyone knowledgeable enough to treat me. There a chance that they could treat you Clomid and you could remain fertile.
 
#11
I'm in Canada and I worked with Defymedical.com in Tampa by phone. If you can get a copy of your physical from your MD (no reason anyone cannot get that) then all you do is get labs and they'll take you on as a client for not much $$ and set your protocol to work. The short answer is what you suggest is far from a normal protocol.
 
#12
I'm in Socal and had a Defy consult yesterday and am going to proceed with the treatment that was suggested by Dr. Saya. I'm sure in 10 years this telemedicine will become the norm everywhere, medicines will be delivered by drones. You don't even need to get up off the couch.
 
Thread starter #13
This is awesome. Thank you all for pointing me the right direction. I’ll be looking into them both and proceeding with one of them more than likely.

Are levels over 1,000 common or acceptable? And just how much will this help me in terms of weight loss, energy and grey outlook on life?

It’s weird that I’ve always had very high libido and very muscular arms and legs to me for having such low test. I mean I have not an ounce of fat on my arms or legs but my midsection is enormous.
 
#14
This is awesome. Thank you all for pointing me the right direction. I'll be looking into them both and proceeding with one of them more than likely.

Are levels over 1,000 common or acceptable? And just how much will this help me in terms of weight loss, energy and grey outlook on life?

It's weird that I've always had very high libido and very muscular arms and legs to me for having such low test. I mean I have not an ounce of fat on my arms or legs but my midsection is enormous.
Try not to fall into the tempting trap of chasing a number. It's fair to say that a total testosterone value of 1,000 is certainly not unusual, but to focus on total testosteone, and not weigh the importance of free testosteone (for example), can blind a fellow to where attention needs to be paid.

You'll in good hands with either Prime Body or Defy. When you contact them you should ask as many hard questions as you can think of (cost, mode of treatment, and so on). They won't dodge.
 
#15
This is awesome. Thank you all for pointing me the right direction. I'll be looking into them both and proceeding with one of them more than likely.

Are levels over 1,000 common or acceptable? And just how much will this help me in terms of weight loss, energy and grey outlook on life?

It's weird that I've always had very high libido and very muscular arms and legs to me for having such low test. I mean I have not an ounce of fat on my arms or legs but my midsection is enormous.
Here's my latest labs.

testosterone serum 1117 ng/dL range 264 - 916
Free T 30.3 pg/mL range 6.6 - 18.1
DHEA - Sulfate 347.3 range 48.9 - 344.2
Estradiol, Sensitive 29.5 range 8.0 - 35.0
SHBG 48.8 range 19.3 - 76.4
HCT 47.9 range 37.5 - 51.0
 
#16
Dosing will depend on your SHBG level and how sensitive you are to androgens, I'm very sensitive to androgens and can't handle the 600 range without breaking out in acne all over my body. So you see chasing a high number (1000) only causes me misery.
 
#17
...............Are levels over 1,000 common or acceptable? And just how much will this help me in terms of weight loss, energy and grey outlook on life?...................
Levels at or over 1,000 are common and acceptable as long as the other important areas are within proper boundaries. If levels are at 1,000 or greater and other areas are completely out of whack due to the high testosterone levels then it isn't going to be acceptable. If everything lines up and you are dialed in with levels at 1,000 you will feel typically feel good, have energy, and it should help you manage your weight. High levels of testosterone won't just make everything in your life perfect. You still need to manage your life, your diet, work out and stay in shape, etc.......but having good levels of testosterone will help you get to where you would like to be. It takes a while to get dialed in and it is a marathon not a sprint. My levels are similar to Vince's.

Element

Range

Unit

Result

Testosterone

264 - 916

ng/dl

1055

Free Test

7.2 - 24.0

pg/ml

30.1

% Free to Total

2.0 - 3.0

%

2.85%

Estradiol, Sensitive

8.0 - 35.0

pg/ml

35.3

SHBG

19.3 - 76.4

nmol/l

30.0

DHEA-S

49 - 344

ug/dl

261

Hematocrit

37.5 - 51.0

%

48.0



I do not use an AI and I don't believe that Vince does either.
 
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Thread starter #18
Hey guys,

I realized chasing a number is silly and there are a myriad of things the docs will consider. I’ve led a very stressed out life since childhood so I theorize that me cortisol, prolactin and surely estrogen levels are out of whack. I also take the point about free T and SHBG. But I still can’t stop this question from running through my mind: My T has been so low for so long, what would it be like to have high T? That’s where the number chasing comes into play I think.

I wish I knew how to post pictures. The contrast in me is unbelievable. I have well defined legs and arms but a giant gut. I look pretty ridiculous I think. I eat once a day, keto, do HARD cardio on the freestrider 5 days a week and lift 5 days a week. Still can’t lose anymore fat or gain any strength. It’s been so frustrating. I can’t wait to see how a healthy level of test changes all that. Maybe I won’t be a hard gainer/loser anymore.

I’m going to call both places here in about 20 minutes and I’ll let you guys know how that goes. To be honest I don’t really even know what questions to ask them and at this point I plan on going with whoever is willing to TRY to raise levels without TRT before we just jump on the full TRT train.
 
#19
Interesting that Vince's SHBG is higher than MarkM's, and yet Vince's free test is also higher. Just proves that how sticky each person's SHBG is, and the level at which it binds to testosterone/ estrogen, is another factor to consider with SHBG, not just the number itself.
 
#20
Interesting that Vince's SHBG is higher than MarkM's, and yet Vince's free test is also higher. Just proves that how sticky each person's SHBG is, and the level at which it binds to testosterone/ estrogen, is another factor to consider with SHBG, not just the number itself.
So many variables and we are all different. Vince has higher Total T and has a ratio of Free T:Total T of 2.71% and my ratio is slightly higher at 2.85%.
 
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