So for the first 4 months or so of trt at 200mg test cyp per week with minimal ai usage. .25 anastrozole maybe once every 5 days or so, I felt good. Great workouts, insane pumps, crazy libido. Then I started reading on here about trying to stay within the low 20s on e2. So I began using the recommended 1mg anastrozole/100mg test. Throughout the course of a few months everything went downhill. My most recent labs show my t in 900s and e2 at 22. Perfect numbers, but I felt like GARBAGE. Throughout that time span I developed dark rings around my eyes, became tired and fatigued every day. Depression, anxiety. It wasn’t until I weaned off the arimidex lately that I began to feel rejuvenated. Energy came back, sex drive came back, fatigue disappeared, and my strength in the gym is through the roof. Bottom line is that I feel MUCH better with ELEVATED e2 and minimal ai usage. Sure I hold a little more water but feel 10x better. And for the record I have low shbg, between 8-12 consistently. I always would read up how low shbg guys feel worse with high normal e2, but this was absolutely not my case and following that advice dug me into a deep hole of feeling like shit. Just sharing my experience with all of you that with perfect e2 on paper I feel like death, and with elevated e2 I feel amazing.
Vince Carter
Banned
That's a great story, elevated is all relative, high for you is a level that kills me and we have the same SHBG numbers. I saw a lot of my problems resolved with my E2 in the single digits, believe it or not. Body acne resolved, penile sensitivity improved, orgasm is remarkably improved...it's been all positive.
Every guy has to find their E spot.
Every guy has to find their E spot.
CoastWatcher
Moderator
Congratulations on finding where your estradiol sits. But...I hope you didn't find the "recommended 1mg anastrozole/100mg of test" here on Excelmale. That sort of prescriptive ratio makes no sense. If it was as simple as that nobody would have trouble balancing all the elements of their protocol.
Yep! We are all different- some need higher E2 and some lower!
I think guys like Jay Campbell are being very cavalier with their advice that you don’t need an ai!
For those just starting out start low and so your blooodwork!
Indy
Did you ever have your E2 tested while on the minimal dose of ai? Curious as to where your E2 sits when you feel all those positive benefits you mentioned. And have your ever thought about going off of your ai completely? Thanks for sharing your story.
DragonBits
Well-Known Member
I too would like to know what level the OP considers "elevated" E2. I have seen people call elevated 40, 60, 100, even 200 pg/mg E2. Huge differences.
And a 22 pg/nl is hardly optimal if it is the peak number, if so, the trough could be 10. From what I have seen, most guys measure T at the trough right before an injection.
Typically, the longer between injections the higher the peak should be and the lower the trough.
Just not enough info.
And a 22 pg/nl is hardly optimal if it is the peak number, if so, the trough could be 10. From what I have seen, most guys measure T at the trough right before an injection.
Typically, the longer between injections the higher the peak should be and the lower the trough.
Just not enough info.
After cutting the ai dose in half a few months ago, my e2 was at 34 and I was feeling better mentally, but it wasn’t until I cut down the ai even more until my sex drive returned and dark circles around eyes disappeared. I felt like my body had become dependent on the ai, where if I missed a dose I would experience extreme brain fog and a general shitty feeling. But that general lousy feeling lingered and I was completely useless in the bedroom. When I stopped arimidex completely, every symptom I had regressed and eventually disappeared. Energy came back, sex drive, brain fog disappeared. I haven’t gotten my e2 tested since, but I know it’s up because I’m holding a little more water and seem to sweat a lot more. I’ve observed that when I’m holding a bit more water weight, I feel the best. Mentally, physically, sexually etc.
I do every other day injections. I wouldn’t think it would fluctuate that drastically
DragonBits
Well-Known Member
I agree, I wouldn't think it would vary a lot.
I have seen my E2 as high as 56 with a 1389 TT on TRT, and as low as 15 / 630 TT. If I am not on TRT my E2 is usually below 5, once it was as high as 11.
I do gain about 5-7 lbs water if my E2 is high, and I am allergic to things I have never had an allergic reaction to.
I think maybe my blood pressure goes up, but I am not sure, just today I measured E2, whatever it is E2 should be dropping. I will see if my BP drops also.
Long term with very low E (< 5) I get more tendon problems.
Outside of what I have mentioned, I haven't seen anything else. No big libido changes, etc.
BTW, I have never tried an AI, but I am going to in the future.
So you’re currently on no ai, and feel the best while taking no ai at all?
If I read your reply correctly, you still didn’t feel that good even at a very low dose of ai? And when you dropped it completely, you felt the best?
I have experienced the same thing with low dose AI. My numbers at trough were roughly TT 900 FT 27 E2 47 SHBG 23. I wasn't necessarily having high E issues that I was aware of, but knowing that my E2 was 47 at trough and was likely much higher at peak, my doc and I decided to try an AI to see if it had a positive impact.
I took my first dose of AI, felt great for a few hours, thinking to myself "Oh man this is going to be great! Should have started an AI a long time ago". That didn't last very long at all. Later that day I felt tired, a little bit down/depressed (which is not characteristic for me), sexual function deteriorated along with libido, and strangest of all, I felt kinda dumb - slower mentally. Those feelings continued for several days. I laid off the AI for the week and decided that maybe I was coming down with a cold or having a few off days, etc. Tried another dose with my injection the following week. Same exact experience. So no AIs for me.
I feel like a bit of an anomaly because with low normal SHBG, I frequently hear that I should consider lowering my TT/FT levels and get my E2 lower. But whether it is the TT/FT or the E2 that is responsible (I suspect it's both), I feel better at higher levels.
I took my first dose of AI, felt great for a few hours, thinking to myself "Oh man this is going to be great! Should have started an AI a long time ago". That didn't last very long at all. Later that day I felt tired, a little bit down/depressed (which is not characteristic for me), sexual function deteriorated along with libido, and strangest of all, I felt kinda dumb - slower mentally. Those feelings continued for several days. I laid off the AI for the week and decided that maybe I was coming down with a cold or having a few off days, etc. Tried another dose with my injection the following week. Same exact experience. So no AIs for me.
I feel like a bit of an anomaly because with low normal SHBG, I frequently hear that I should consider lowering my TT/FT levels and get my E2 lower. But whether it is the TT/FT or the E2 that is responsible (I suspect it's both), I feel better at higher levels.
That is a great question and one I have gone over many times in my head. I came to the conclusion that it was either one of the two things you suggested - either placebo, or maybe I very briefly entered a sweet spot. Another thought I've had is that the basis for my "feeling great" comment was based on having a high energy day in the gym shortly after taking the AI. But those days come and go seemingly at random so maybe it had nothing to do with the AI.
A few things I can say for sure were not placebo were some of the negative effects. Mentally, I was truly expecting to have better libido/erectile function - the opposite occurred. I had heard about people experiencing joint pain, etc from AIs - I was aware of that side effect but did not experience it. Additionally, I had never heard of anyone saying that an AI made them feel dumb mentally or feel slightly depressed - and those for me were the worst (and most surprising) side effects.
Thanks for the reply. So have your ever felt as good though on no ai, as you felt those few hours after taking it? Like have you experienced that “great” feeling you described? If you have, then ya maybe you were coincidentally just having a really good day that day. If you haven’t, then I would say most likely placebo, or maybe you would do better with slightly lower E2. But either way, sounds like overall you’re much better off with no ai.
I really appreciate your logic.
Yes definitely - I have felt as good or better. But there are always ups and downs for me and I don't expect TRT to make me feel like a million bucks all the time - I was maybe hopeful in that brief moment that the AI was the magic missing piece to feeling great all the time. I agree with you that it was likely placebo.
That was the answer I was hoping for. I’m hoping eventually I can get off of my ai completely as well, so good to know that you’ve had that “sweet spot” feeling while taking no ai at all. You’re not alone though, I think most of us are looking to dial in our protocols to the point where we feel like that all the time. But it’s probably not realistic. The guys on here that report feeling consistently great I guess are probably the anamolies, and the rest of us mortals most likely have to settle for feeing great most of the time, instead of all the time.
It was as though the ai didn’t last throughout the day and just as you described I’d begin feeling depressed at the end of the day, and extreme brain fog. I could hardly talk to anyone. Slow speech, dry eyes, couldn’t think of what I’d want to say. I swear a lot of people probably thought I was high.
So when you say “it was though the ai didn’t last throughout the day” and that’s why you experienced those symptoms, are you inferring that the symptoms were possibly due to high E2?
I think S1W is inferring the opposite. He’s basically saying that the ai drove his E2 too low, and that’s what was causing most of his symptoms. If I’m reading his reply correctly.
In my case it was like my body had become dependent on the ai. It would work for maybe 5 hours max and then I’d experience symptoms again and need more to feel normal. I wasn’t sure if the symptoms were from high or low e2 during those times. It wasn’t until I got bloods that I was able to associate my symptoms to the lower levels of estrogen. I eased off on the ai a bit and in a few months started feeling better, e2 came back at 34. I eased off arimidex even more and experienced even more relief. Could’ve been side effects of the drug itself and not just the estrogen. I’m not sure
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