Does anyone use Nandrolone (Deca Durabolin) ?

[maxadvance]

Nelson,

you have been a brilliant guide on this feed so thank you.

I am going to run deca and test every 6 days 50mg each. do i load test first for a period of time or start them both straight away?

also what test is best to run for such low dosing?

i am doing it for theraputic purposes and not body building although i may increase dose in time and see how it goes.

Deca takes up to six weeks to start to really feel the effect. 50mg a week is a dose that may have no effect at all. I ran 100mg of Test and 75mg of Deca every 3.5 days. My prolactin went from 20 to high 30's, and my hematocrit went from 48 to 55. No negative effect on libido, in fact it got better.

 

[GA8314]

Do we know if the DEA looks askance at the Rx of off-label Nandrolone?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Thanks Maxadvance for the update. Next time also test for progesterone if you can. Thanks

Nandrolone, oxandrolone and stanazonol are the only three anabolics approved in the US for clinical use. Even HIV wasting is off label use for any of them. The DEA has not gone after HIV docs in the past 25 years. Nandrolone off label use for joint healing is off label also with less data than HIV wasting. I am yet to hear about the DEA going after that use. Oxandrolone is the only anabolic actually approved for the reversal of unintentional weight loss due to illness.

Anabolic/Androgenic Hormone Prescribing Indications

Read more at: https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...ic-Androgenic-Hormone-Prescribing-Indications

 

[GA8314]

Thanks Maxadvance for the update. Next time also test for progesterone if you can. Thanks

Nelson, do you have any idea if the Rx of off-label Nandrolone gets flagged in any way by the DEA?? I'm about to call one of the good compounders I have used and which is referenced on this forum quite often. But, just wanted to see what your opinion is on this.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Some compounders like APS will not process a nandrolone prescription unless your doctor writes the HIV code on it. Most do not do this, though.

Your doctor should have good references in your chart about the reason why he or she prescribed. Here are some references that I would use (click on references)

Nandrolone and joint healing

Recent studies in animal models have identified a potential role for nandrolone in joint pain, particularly post rotator cuff tears (31,32). In one such study by Gerberet al. (31), 20 New Zealand white rabbits had their supraspinatus tendon released with musculotendinous retraction and observed over 6 weeks. Rabbits were organized into groups treated with placebo as well as local and systemic administration of nandrolone (31). Nandrolone, given in the phase after tendon release, was found to inhibit fatty infiltration of the supraspinatus muscle and reduced functional impairment of the rotator cuff (31). An earlier 2010 study by Papaspiliopoulos et al. (32) examined 48 male rabbits that underwent rotator cuff incision and reconstruction after stratification into groups based on local nandrolone administration and immobilization. In this study, local administration of nandrolone proved detrimental to wound healing however, systemic administration was not studied (32). Other limitations include the fact that anabolic steroids affect the tensile strength of tendons that may then cause failure with less elongation (33). Local administration of nandrolone may impair the healing of acute tendon injuries and the perceived benefits to retracted muscle may be outweighed by its effects on tendon healing (34). Interestingly, Internet and discussion group anecdotal data suggests that nandrolone is effective in decreasing joint pain in bodybuilders. These athletes lift large amounts of weights putting extreme pressure on their joints while reporting improvement and lowered pain with the use of nandrolone. While limited data is available, and dosages are unknown, further investigations are needed to determine the effects of nandrolone on joints in general, and the rotator cuff in particular. Full paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4837307/

Read more at: https://www.excelmale.com/forum/sho...use-of-nandrolone-in-male-health-and-wellness

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Animal data (No human data is available)

Anabolic steroids reduce muscle damage caused by rotator cuff tendon release in an experimental study in rabbits.Gerber C, Meyer DC, Nuss KM, Farshad M
J Bone Joint Surg Am. 2011 Dec 7; 93(23):2189-95.
[PubMed] [Ref list]

 

[Nelson Vergel]

THERAPEUTIC USES

A number of clinical studies using a variety of experimental designs have shown that the potent anabolic effects of AAS have positive benefits to various patient populations.[SUP]58[/SUP]

Physiologic replacement doses of testosterone have been used therapeutically to restore hormone levels in hypogonadal men, thereby increasing fat-free mass, muscle size and strength, and bone density[SUP]8,[/SUP],[SUP]16,[/SUP],[SUP]48,[/SUP],[SUP]87,[/SUP],[SUP]99[/SUP];
improve mood and alleviate depression[SUP]70,[/SUP],[SUP]82,[/SUP],[SUP]102[/SUP];
increase body weight, muscle mass, and strength in eugonadal patients with secondary wasting syndromes, such as infection with HIV,[SUP]10,[/SUP],[SUP]36,[/SUP],[SUP]74,[/SUP],[SUP]77,[/SUP],[SUP]78,[/SUP],[SUP]89[/SUP] when maintaining lean body mass may be beneficial for long-term survival[SUP]25[/SUP]; and
augment muscle mass in older men and prevent age-related sarcopenia that contributes to frailty and falls.[SUP]15,[/SUP],[SUP]17,[/SUP],[SUP]79,[/SUP],[SUP]88,[/SUP],[SUP]98[/SUP]


Future Applications

A more widely accepted use of androgen therapy has been hampered by the lack of orally active preparations with good efficacy and safe profile. Progress has been limited in developing synthetic molecules that could separate the desired anabolic effects from other androgenic effects that were undesirable or had dose-limiting effects. A new class of molecules is currently under investigation. The so-called selective androgen receptor modulators exhibit tissue specificity in targeting the AR.[SUP]64[/SUP] In the future, it is likely that testosterone derivatives will be further tested for a broad range of medical conditions.In orthopaedic sports medicine, we might anticipate the novel use of AAS as adjuvant medical therapy in fracture healing, soft tissue healing, or postoperative rehabilitation. Recent studies demonstrate that AASs promote the healing of muscle contusion injury[SUP]6[/SUP] and that AASs can reduce immobilization-induced muscle atrophy.[SUP]95[/SUP] Low-dose AASs have also been shown to improve functional outcome in elderly women after hip fracture, exhibiting a beneficial effect on muscle mass and bone mineral density.[SUP]39[/SUP]


Current Concepts in Anabolic-Androgenic Steroids

Nick A. Evans, MD*

Am J Sports Med March 2004 vol. 32 no. 2 534-542

 

[Nelson Vergel]

[h=2]Commentary[/b]Clinical and animal studies have shown that following chronic rotator cuff tendon tears, the muscle undergoes degeneration and profound architectural changes, including fatty infiltration and shortened muscle fibers, with an accompanying loss of contractility and elasticity1-6. These changes have been assumed to be irreversible and can lead to persistent disability despite technically successful tendon repair. Hence, there is an urgent need for reliable interventions to impede, and potentially reverse, these pathological changes after rotator cuff tears.
In the current rabbit study, Gerber et al. investigated the capacity of anabolic steroid treatment to diminish muscle atrophy and fatty infiltration following supraspinatus tendon release from its osseous insertion. To prevent spontaneous healing, the tendon-bone chip complex was wrapped in a Penrose drain. The authors examined three experimental groups: (I) untreated muscle, (II) weekly systemic and local injections of nandrolone decanoate (into the quadriceps femoris and supraspinatus muscles, respectively), and (III) weekly systemic administration of nandrolone decanoate during six weeks of muscle retraction.
Encouraging six-week results, suggestive of an apparent protective effect of nandrolone decanoate administration, are presented. Significantly decreased retraction of the musculotendinous unit in the steroid-treated groups was observed in comparison with the untreated controls. Work by the muscle (measured intraoperatively during one standardized contraction with supramaximal stimulation) was similar prior to and following tendon release for all groups. Muscle atrophy (reduction in nominal cross-sectional area measured by computed tomography) was greater for untreated rabbits in comparison with those that received systemic steroid treatment. Fatty infiltration, measured via histological analysis, was apparent only in the untreated rabbits. Finally, a strong statistical trend toward decreased muscle fiber diameter was reported for the untreated group, while similar fiber diameters were found prior to and following tendon release for both treatment groups.
This investigation is noteworthy as it is among the first reports (along with a prior study utilizing continuous elongation of the retracted myotendinous unit, performed by the same research group7) of inhibition of fatty infiltration following myotendinous retraction. The authors' stated rationale for selecting nandrolone decanoate derives from literature demonstrating the efficacy of this androgen for the treatment of muscle wasting and osteoporosis. The present study is also intriguing, given the reliability of the rabbit rotator cuff model to produce rotator cuff muscle degeneration (following tendon release), which is similar to that seen in humans8-10.
The authors addressed well the numerous study limitations such as the reduced extent of fatty infiltration in rabbits compared with that in humans. Neither animal activity levels nor the potential side effects of the steroid administration were studied; a concern is that the investigators reported that two animals from the systemic treatment group developed a postoperative infection at the site of surgery and were excluded from the study.
An additional concern is that of potential detrimental effects of the steroid administration on tendon biology and function. Clearly, while healthy muscle is beneficial to the restoration of a functional muscle-tendon-bone unit, there is a possibility that the perceived benefits conferred to the retracted muscle by steroid treatment may, to some extent, be offset by compromised tendon healing. In particular, a recent rabbit study11 has noted impairment of rotator cuff tendon healing due to nandrolone decanoate administration following acute tendon injury and repair (which, one should note, likely does not mimic the chronicity of the tendon tear of the present study).
The data presented by Gerber et al. constitute novel, important findings that indicate a potential therapeutic role for nandrolone decanoate in the treatment of muscle pathology following chronic rotator cuff tears. However, further study of dose-response characteristics and drug delivery approaches are warranted in order to enhance the potential of this approach for clinical translation. In future studies, it may also be of interest to determine whether the currently reported findings are species-specific, particularly given the recent development of rat models of rotator cuff muscle degeneration and fatty infiltration following tendon tears12,13.


Important Preliminary Findings on the Potential Role for Nandrolone Decanoate in the Treatment of Chronic Rotator Cuff Tears.
Commentary on an article by C. Gerber, MD, FRCS, et al.: “Anabolic Steroids Reduce Muscle Damage Caused by Rotator Cuff Tendon Release in an Experimental Study in Rabbits”
Vincent M. Wang, PhD
J Bone Joint Surg Am, 2011 Dec 07; 93 (23): e144

 

[Nick]

Ok so, about to start my cycle but need some advice on these as in my head they're scaring the shit out of me.

1. I don't want Deca **** so what do I do to make sure my prolactin doesn't go too high? What's best for prolactin issues if they do occur? How much/many do I take for how often and for how long?

2.running 100mg Deca and 100mg test. What type of test should I get and how often should I take each one? 6 days for Deca and every 4 for test??

3. Do I run anything else from a health perspective when running these two? If so how much and how often?

4. How long should I cycle for?

5 . what pct do I need? How much and how often do I take? How quickly after the cycle do I start it? How long do I wait to start next cycle?

6. Me and my brothers had gynocomastea (spelling??) as teenagers but went away naturally. If I get signs what do I take, how much and often?

Sorry for clogging the feed but can't find these answers to the degree i need them anywhere.

 

[maxadvance]

Ok so, about to start my cycle but need some advice on these as in my head they're scaring the shit out of me.

1. I don't want Deca **** so what do I do to make sure my prolactin doesn't go too high? What's best for prolactin issues if they do occur? How much/many do I take for how often and for how long?

2.running 100mg Deca and 100mg test. What type of test should I get and how often should I take each one? 6 days for Deca and every 4 for test??

3. Do I run anything else from a health perspective when running these two? If so how much and how often?

4. How long should I cycle for?

5 . what pct do I need? How much and how often do I take? How quickly after the cycle do I start it? How long do I wait to start next cycle?

6. Me and my brothers had gynocomastea (spelling??) as teenagers but went away naturally. If I get signs what do I take, how much and often?

Sorry for clogging the feed but can't find these answers to the degree i need them anywhere.

First and foremost, 100mg of Deca per week may or may not barely spike your prolactin. At 100mg per week you should see no sign of deca*ick lol. I think it's important that your dose of T should be slightly higher than the deca dose. 150T/100D or like I do 200T/160D, which is my current regimen. At this dose, literally everything sexual has improved for me.

At that dose you can't call it a "cycle", you could call it a "cruise" and continue it until you've decided it improves your physical being or you've decided it causes adverse effects. All the while taking bloods to see where you are with your Hematocrit, E2, prolactin, complete CMP to check your organs, and lipids to see if the doses have effected those as well.

If your E2 creeps up then arimedex should be available to control that and put away any fears of gyno.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

I am yet to see one lab test that shows that nandrolone increases prolactin. Does anyone have proof beyond bro science websites?

 

[GA8314]

I am yet to see one lab test that shows that nandrolone increases prolactin. Does anyone have proof beyond bro science websites?

I almost think that somehow, way back when, some brohead read out progestin and thought prolactin and things just perpetuated..... I've seen animal studies showing progestins being used to treat prolactinomas/pituitary adenomas..... I have yet to see an explanation on progestins causing increased prolactin.

I don't doubt the very real phenomena of deca-dic.k but I think there must be other explanations for this. Then again, maybe the bro's have anecdotal laboratory data?

I do know that 400 mg Test cyp/week did seem to increase sexual desire, but the performance factor was not there and sensitivity was down. Then again, I was shooting from the hip (without labs) and taking a reasonably high dose of Arimidex (up to 2 mg/week) which I THINK in and of itself may do something to decrease sexual performance irrespective of E2 levels (as in on it's own but I have zero data to support that).

That's what I think happens to the AAS guys. They use these complicated stacks and can't possibly isolate the variables.

 

[PAUL-E]

I am yet to see one lab test that shows that nandrolone increases prolactin. Does anyone have proof beyond bro science websites?

I have a previous prolactin and progesterone tests(on TRT but no HCG). I'm planning on testing them both at the end of August I will post the results without nandrolone and with nandrolone. I have to say I'm happy with my libido and my new protocol.

 

[GA8314]

I have a previous prolactin and progesterone tests(on TRT but no HCG). I'm planning on testing them both at the end of August I will post the results without nandrolone and with nandrolone. I have to say I'm happy with my libido and my new protocol.

Paul,

What is your new protocol versus old protocol? How long have you been on it? Sorry in advance if you've already posted this.

Thanks in advance.

GA

 

[PAUL-E]

injecting 3x a week MWF
50mg of testosterone(its been between 50-60mg as I have been backfilling insulin syringes) = 150-180mg a week
200iu's = HCG 600iu's a week
40mg nandrolone = 120mg a week
as well as daily
4000mg fish oil
50mg zinc
100mg coq10
3000mg vitamin D
425mg magnesium malate
I feel like I'm forgetting something but I think that's it. sorry couple days in on Cialis/Tadalafil started 10mg just went to 5mg today plan on 5mg every day

old was 2x a week
110mg testosterone
500iu's HCG
3mg aromasin/exemestane every day

 

[MAD King]

A question to Nelson: How did you manage your LDL/HDL level over this decade using Nandrolone?

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Great question.

LDL management is easy: diet and exercise (and my lucky genes). I never had to take a statin.


HDL- Super hard. Niacin improves it by10% at most if you can tolerate it. I tried all of these supplements but my HDL remained in the 28-32 range. Supplements that lower LDL cholesterol and triglycerides and increase HDL.

In my opinion, all anabolic related side effects (high hematocrit, high BP, edema, acne, hair loss, insomnia) are manageable with the exception of low HDL.

 

[MAD King]

In my opinion, all anabolic related side effects (high hematocrit, high BP, edema, acne, hair loss, insomnia) are manageable with the exception of low HDL.

Thank you Nelson. I never had any issues with high BP, edema, acne, hair loss, insomni. Only with a little bit higher hematocrit, but with the phlebotomy therapy this is manageable. HDL will be a problem.

 

[Nelson Vergel]

Thank you Nelson. I never had any issues with high BP, edema, acne, hair loss, insomni. Only with a little bit higher hematocrit, but with the phlebotomy therapy this is manageable. HDL will be a problem.

I didn't either. That is why I was able to remain on 200 mg nandrolone plus 200 mg testosterone for so long. Low HDL was my only issue. I only had to do phlebotomy once and then my hematocrit stabilized under 53 for years.

 

[MAD King]

With only one phlebotomy therapy? wow.