Arimidex discontinuation update

[tmaxey1]

Actually they are sharing first hand experience. They are claiming estrogen is beneficial, and therefore more optimal to not suppress.

I’ve done my own fair share of experimentation with dosing and ai usage. It’s been right at 2 months now since I quit taking any ai, and this is the best protocol I’ve had.

So I shouldn't suppress my estrogen because its beneficial right?
What should I do about the tits that start growing on my chest?
What should I do about the excessive water retention. My hands and feet swell up like balloons. I can barely make a fist without feeling like my skin will rip. What should I do about all the water retention blood pressure issues? What about the stress on my kidneys and heart from this blood pressure? Ignore all that because estrogen is beneficial?

One size doesn't fit all and if someone has estrogen side effects and his estrogen levels are 60 then what should this person do?

If a doctor is really using his own 'first hand' experience to determine his patients protocol then he shouldnt be practicing medicine.

These guys falsely claim that no patient has ever needed an AI under their care....BS.
Me and other guys here have needed AI's. We are not fat slobs who smoke weed all day either.

 

[user_joe]

So I shouldn't suppress my estrogen because its beneficial right?
What should I do about the tits that start growing on my chest?
What should I do about the excessive water retention. My hands and feet swell up like balloons. I can barely make a fist without feeling like my skin will rip. What should I do about all the water retention blood pressure issues? What about the stress on my kidneys and heart from this blood pressure? Ignore all that because estrogen is beneficial?

One size doesn't fit all and if someone has estrogen side effects and his estrogen levels are 60 then what should this person do?

If a doctor is really using his own 'first hand' experience to determine his patients protocol then he shouldnt be practicing medicine.

These guys falsely claim that no patient has ever needed an AI under their care....BS.
Me and other guys here have needed AI's. We are not fat slobs who smoke weed all day either.

I have none of the issues you mention. I’ve had other symptoms typically related to high e2 before. They are transient and possibly due to the rise in e2 and not the current level. They can be transient.

My protocol is 300mg test cyp a week with 1000mg hcg divided into daily doses. It may be too high of a dose long term, but blood tests indicate otherwise so far.

 

[tropicaldaze1950]

Thanks, joe. Though I've been on and off T for a few years, I'm still trying to find dose and schedule. Right now doing 50 mg, EOD. When I get a new rx, I'll go back to 200, weekly, or 100 E3D.

 

[Shad0w]

***UPDATE***
Been over a month, maybe two since quitting anastrozole and any ai’s. My protocol is 45 mg enanthate eod, no hcg, no ai. I have never felt better. Every single symptom of mine is gone. I feel like a normal, healthy, optimal man finally. Sex drive is in full gear, absolutely zero water retention, workouts are insane, body composition has improved, no more mental funks and fluctuations throughout the day like I experienced with ai’s. Everything is completely stable day to day. No ups and downs in sex drive, erectile quality, energy, bloat, nothing.

Again, I’m not forcing anyone to follow my lead but after starting trt I thought I was one of the unfortunate non responders. Symptoms became worse on trt for me and I had no idea why. Labs were perfect. The only thing I did was drop ai usage and stopped blocking estrogen, then all of a sudden my trt did a 180. The first year of trt was ruined for me due to ai’s and I almost quit trt completely because I felt like it was a failure. At that point I honestly felt better with low T than I did on my trt. It took a few weeks off of the ai’s to see things resolve and they continued to resolve as the weeks went by. Now after about 2 months without it, I’m experiencing the true benefits from trt and think that my protocol is a true success finally.

I encourage anyone who feels that their trt has failed them to try dropping test dosage to 35-50mg eod, no ai and no hcg. The hcg increased aromatase activity for me. Give it a month or two and re evaluate. Best decision I’ve ever made

 

[Shad0w]

That’s just not how it works. We all have natural slight hormonal changes throughout the day and weeks. Insulin, sleep, stress all cause hormonal changes.

The reality is there is nothing about slightly lowering estrogen levels that leads to water retention. Water retention can change with sodium ect. But there is no evidence or science behind .125 AI or reduced E2 that would cause water retention at all. None.

I could not disagree with you more. When you’re on trt, you’re on synthetic hormones and your body doesn’t respond exactly the same as it would from endogenous hormones. Your body can control the production and suppression of different endogenous hormones in response to different things (stress, sleep, training etc) But once you throw exogenous, synthetic hormones into your body it is then forced to accept it or deny it. At that point it has to try to catch up and regulate endogenous hormones in response to the synthetic ones. During this process you can easily experience water retention, mood swings, etc. Even from a low dose ai, because you’re throwing off homeostasis within your body and forcing an unnatural regulation in hormones.

 

[Shad0w]

Thanks, joe. Though I've been on and off T for a few years, I'm still trying to find dose and schedule. Right now doing 50 mg, EOD. When I get a new rx, I'll go back to 200, weekly, or 100 E3D.

If you’re looking to try a new protocol here’s my recommendation that completely changed my trt experience- Try your 50 mg eod, alternate pinning your delts and drop any hcg and ai. I use quarter inch insulin syringes and it leaves absolutely no trace of an injection. (no post injection pain, scar tissue etc.) Give the protocol about a month and assess how you feel.

Refrain from alcohol if you can and avoid processed foods, think Whole Foods instead. Drink lots of water and get a little exercise in 3-4 days a week if you can.

 

[Shad0w]

So I shouldn't suppress my estrogen because its beneficial right?
What should I do about the tits that start growing on my chest?
What should I do about the excessive water retention. My hands and feet swell up like balloons. I can barely make a fist without feeling like my skin will rip. What should I do about all the water retention blood pressure issues? What about the stress on my kidneys and heart from this blood pressure? Ignore all that because estrogen is beneficial?

One size doesn't fit all and if someone has estrogen side effects and his estrogen levels are 60 then what should this person do?

If a doctor is really using his own 'first hand' experience to determine his patients protocol then he shouldnt be practicing medicine.

These guys falsely claim that no patient has ever needed an AI under their care....BS.
Me and other guys here have needed AI's. We are not fat slobs who smoke weed all day either.

Maybe you’re on too much testosterone than your body naturally likes, therefore it over aromatizes. If you’re on hcg, that will absolutely cause e2 to spike in a lot of cases. In a lot of cases I think minimum effective dose is the way to go. A lot of guys (myself included) started off by pumping the body with more than it needed which obviously forces estrogen to rise in response to testosterone rising. Maybe your liver clearance of estrogen is poor. Arimidex itself can cause tits to grow due to an over compensation of aromatase activity after its initial suppression, aka the rebound. Instead of fighting the symptoms guys should find the cause.

I like to think, “what’s causing the over aromatization?” rather than “what can I do to control the symptoms of the over aromatization?”

 

[Shad0w]

He could be confusing general water retention with edema. When my E2 is high 20s low 30s, I have swelling in my hands and lower extremities. When my E2 is 40-50, I do not. I know...it sounds crazy, but its real. I've spent a fortune on E2 testing through discounted labs trying to nail this down.

Yes, exactly. When I use an ai and keep my estrogen suppressed, I retain water bad. I’m a lean guy, I’ve done body scans and came back at 6.5% body fat in October of 2018. A few hours after I’d take an ai, I start jiggling everywhere. I’m talking about subcutaneous water retention. Without an ai I have no water retention.

 

[Vince Carter]

I never figured mine out, all the way down to 16mg/D of Cyp and nothing else. If I don't run an AI and keep my trough E2 in the single digits, I'm a mess.

what’s causing the over aromatization?

 

[user_joe]

***UPDATE***
Been over a month, maybe two since quitting anastrozole and any ai’s. My protocol is 45 mg enanthate eod, no hcg, no ai. I have never felt better. Every single symptom of mine is gone. I feel like a normal, healthy, optimal man finally. Sex drive is in full gear, absolutely zero water retention, workouts are insane, body composition has improved, no more mental funks and fluctuations throughout the day like I experienced with ai’s. Everything is completely stable day to day. No ups and downs in sex drive, erectile quality, energy, bloat, nothing.

Again, I’m not forcing anyone to follow my lead but after starting trt I thought I was one of the unfortunate non responders. Symptoms became worse on trt for me and I had no idea why. Labs were perfect. The only thing I did was drop ai usage and stopped blocking estrogen, then all of a sudden my trt did a 180. The first year of trt was ruined for me due to ai’s and I almost quit trt completely because I felt like it was a failure. At that point I honestly felt better with low T than I did on my trt. It took a few weeks off of the ai’s to see things resolve and they continued to resolve as the weeks went by. Now after about 2 months without it, I’m experiencing the true benefits from trt and think that my protocol is a true success finally.

I encourage anyone who feels that their trt has failed them to try dropping test dosage to 35-50mg eod, no ai and no hcg. The hcg increased aromatase activity for me. Give it a month or two and re evaluate. Best decision I’ve ever made

That consistency is what I really have noted since quitting an ai. Libido and all is there 99% of days. I still use hcg as well.

 

[Shad0w]

That consistency is what I really have noted since quitting an ai. Libido and all is there 99% of days. I still use hcg as well.

After cutting out the hcg is when I noticed complete stability. First I dropped the ai and noticed dramatic improvements in how I felt, but still not 100% stable. Dropped the hcg and everything smoothed out completely. Not to sound weird but it seemed like hcg made my balls start producing at random times day to day. They’d go soft for a few hours, then rock hard, then be soft at night again etc. Hcg puts me on a bit of a roller coaster.

 

[Shad0w]

I never figured mine out, all the way down to 16mg/D of Cyp and nothing else. If I don't run an AI and keep my trough E2 in the single digits, I'm a mess.

It did take about a month to really smooth out for me after stopping the ai. If you’re on hcg I’d recommend stopping for a month and see how you feel. Bring your test to 40mg eod. I didn’t use hcg for the first 6 months of trt and all the “downstream hormones” were sitting pretty in the middle of the normal range. And that was during a pretty hefty dose as well. Back then I was on 100 e3d.

 

[Pringle]

Super glad it is working for you Shad0w. Low more frequent dosing just did not work for me. I tried low dosages daily at 12mg to try and eliminate AI for 4 months. I also went as low as 200iu HCG E3.5D. I did not feel anywhere near as well as I did when I was on 50mg E3.5D T and 400iu HCG, with .125 AI E3.5D. Even at 12mg daily I had higher E2 with side effects. Now that I have returned to my E3.5D protocol, with low dose AI, I am feeling better again. I learned a valuable lesson.....when you feel great on TRT, Leave it alone!

 

[Blackhawk]

Super glad it is working for you Shad0w. Low more frequent dosing just did not work for me. I tried low dosages daily at 12mg to try and eliminate AI for 4 months. I also went as low as 200iu HCG E3.5D. I did not feel anywhere near as well as I did when I was on 50mg E3.5D T and 400iu HCG, with .125 AI E3.5D. Even at 12mg daily I had higher E2 with side effects. Now that I have returned to my E3.5D protocol, with low dose AI, I am feeling better again. I learned a valuable lesson.....when you feel great on TRT, Leave it alone!

What's your SHBG Pringle?

 

[Pringle]

What's your SHBG Pringle?

32.1 on my last labs.

 

[Mr S]

I have none of the issues you mention. I’ve had other symptoms typically related to high e2 before. They are transient and possibly due to the rise in e2 and not the current level. They can be transient.

My protocol is 300mg test cyp a week with 1000mg hcg divided into daily doses. It may be too high of a dose long term, but blood tests indicate otherwise so far.

How do you manage to have your Dr prescribe 300mg cypionate a week?

 

[tmaxey1]

Maybe you’re on too much testosterone than your body naturally likes, therefore it over aromatizes. If you’re on hcg, that will absolutely cause e2 to spike in a lot of cases. In a lot of cases I think minimum effective dose is the way to go. A lot of guys (myself included) started off by pumping the body with more than it needed which obviously forces estrogen to rise in response to testosterone rising. Maybe your liver clearance of estrogen is poor. Arimidex itself can cause tits to grow due to an over compensation of aromatase activity after its initial suppression, aka the rebound. Instead of fighting the symptoms guys should find the cause.

I like to think, “what’s causing the over aromatization?” rather than “what can I do to control the symptoms of the over aromatization?”

Too much testosterone? 140mg a week and test levels only within the normal range? This idea of just dropping test down because of some aromatization is just ignoring the reason we are on test in the first place. People who are easy aromatizers generally have been this way most of their lives. These are the guys that have teen gyno ect.

I’ve never once heard of anastrozole causing gyno now? This is a new idea concocted in someone’s mind. Show me 1 ounce of proof of this. There is no such things as AI rebound effect. I’m not trying to be rude and I appreciate this discussion but you just made this crap up. It makes no sense and isn’t backed up with a shred of evidence.

It’s weird how some people can’t accept that everyone is biologically unique and some guys need and benefit from AIs. Just as it would be weird for me to tell someone they need to take an AI it’s just as backwards when coming from the other direction.

If I am taking an AI. If my blood levels are solid on everything and I feel like a 20 year old then what’s the problem? What works for me may not work for you and visa versa. This difference is I am not making up fake science to support using an AI.

 

[user_joe]

How do you manage to have your Dr prescribe 300mg cypionate a week?

I just asked. I’ve asked about where the limits are, etc. it’s all about the end result and bloodwork. I disagree with the consensus on arbitrary limits here. So does my Dr.

 

[Mr S]

I just asked. I’ve asked about where the limits are, etc. it’s all about the end result and bloodwork. I disagree with the consensus on arbitrary limits here. So does my Dr.

My doctor isn’t against prescribing higher doses but he mentioned to me some regulations against going beyond 200mg/week. Indeed pharmacist seem to take the “laws” upon themselves and give patients and doctors a hard time. I don’t need 300mg so far but even 225mg to get more cypionate viales was an issue. Pharmacist don’t fill the script per Dr but as they find it “suitable”.

 

[Shad0w]

Too much testosterone? 140mg a week and test levels only within the normal range? This idea of just dropping test down because of some aromatization is just ignoring the reason we are on test in the first place. People who are easy aromatizers generally have been this way most of their lives. These are the guys that have teen gyno ect.

I’ve never once heard of anastrozole causing gyno now? This is a new idea concocted in someone’s mind. Show me 1 ounce of proof of this. There is no such things as AI rebound effect. I’m not trying to be rude and I appreciate this discussion but you just made this crap up. It makes no sense and isn’t backed up with a shred of evidence.

It’s weird how some people can’t accept that everyone is biologically unique and some guys need and benefit from AIs. Just as it would be weird for me to tell someone they need to take an AI it’s just as backwards when coming from the other direction.

If I am taking an AI. If my blood levels are solid on everything and I feel like a 20 year old then what’s the problem? What works for me may not work for you and visa versa. This difference is I am not making up fake science to support using an AI.

No such thing as ai rebound? LOL stop taking your arimidex and I guarantee you will experience a rebound. It is well known that arimidex causes a rebound. You must be thinking of aromasin. They have different mechanisms of action. And gyno is a predisposition, just like male pattern baldness. If you have gyno, you have the gene for it. Or something else might be causing it like poor liver function, thyroid issues, certain medications etc. You can have two guys with the exact same estrogen level and one may have gyno while the other does not. This isn’t because one aromatizes more, it’s because he’s genetically predisposed to getting gyno or has another condition or medication causing it. And no I didn’t make this crap up. Have you ever done your research on any of this or do you just listen to an uninformed doctor? Regardless, if you’re fine on your ai, then stay on it and quit trolling.