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I got all the rest of my latest labwork in yesterday. I will publish it right here as soon as I get a few minutes. I am QUITE surprised. You may be, too. Learned A LOT from this experience!

Guys, PLEASE. I ask again to maintain the conversation about ideas, not making disparaging comments about people.

No, we sure do not want to reduce any of the many, important health benefits of estrogen. I just wish we had an idea of what an optimized level would be (and is probably different for everyone, like everything else). I also wish we knew if really high levels were bad for us in any way. But...

Thank you. I am wondering how long you went after stopping the anastrozole? I ask because these things can even out over time. From what I read, you describe any negative potential effects as "slight decreases". I am wondering if they would pass after a few weeks. Also, such subjective reports...

I wish to acknowledge, and thank, Nelson's provision of this forum for all of us. He is decidedly against AI use, but still, in a very open-minded way, allows free discussion of the topic. That is precisely why I came here to open this thread, as I want to hear from guys who went off their AI's...

You betcha! I read what you said, and was exactly why I came here to ask the good members of this forum for their experiences. Of note, I have never prescribed an AI to a patient if they did not have symptoms of elevated E. So we need to figure out why it is some guys are just great at high...

I will share my whole story, right here. This is a process that has gone on over the past 2 years. As many of you know, I have personally tried the protocols I use, to get the feel for them. As always, I am but n=1, but have always gained a good "feel" for what my patients might experience like...

I had labs drawn last Friday, and will report them as soon as I get them back.

Very high estrogen levels can cause subclinical hypothyroidism, that may need treatment. This is well known.

Yes, there was. I will report on my own experiences as soon as I get a few minutes. And we want to keep in mind every-body is different.

Yes. How much it will actually affect how a patient will feel, or even if it will affect how they feel at all, remains to be seen.

I have now gotten myself off Anastrozole. Started this quietly over a month ago. I had to personally experience how it felt. Lowered my dose of test cyp subsequently, and I feel even better than before! I do think AI's are over prescribed in our field. After reading the experiences of many of...

Yes, let's talk about "Sweet Spot". To my mind, there is no such thing as correctly tightening E2 within some mythical ideal range. Given differences in genetics, metabolism, receptor density, EDC exposure etc etc the difference across the population is far too great for such a thing to even be...

Every Lab Director in the country knows immunoassay is invalid for adult males. If you run the wrong run, it will tell you so on the printout when you get the results back.

Excellent point. That is the difference between association and causation. For instance, visceral fat produces lots of estrogen. It's also extremely inflammatory. So we see the high E and the illness, and blame it on the E; it was the inflammation all along.

GUYS: Can we please keep this discussion about ideas, rather than about people?

That's a great question. How much the immunoassay overestimates actual serum concentration is not consistent. There are too many other constituents of the blood, with their own varying level, to do so. Compared to when the correct assay was run at the same time, I have seen it over, way over...

So I am clear about this, it's probably time I say there may indeed be no negative consequences whatsoever from inducing very high levels of T, E and DHT. We just don't know yet. This is why I am listening very carefully to what proponents of these types of therapies are saying.

That is only if you run the invalid immunoassay test, which greatly overestimates the actual serum concentration. In all my years of looking at mens' labs, I have never seen a valid E2 level that high in any man who was not in liver failure. I want to add that I think the world of my old...

I'm happy to take any of my patients off their AI if they want to (or not put them on it in the first place). We can also modify their TRT regimen in a number of ways. Smaller, more frequent injections are a great idea...if the gentleman can/will put in the extra time. Not all patients want to...

If it's what it takes for a given patient, a Total T of 1500 is not a problem. This would be especially true if he had a high(er) SHBG, for instance. Now add in Endocrine Disrupting Chemicals, Androgen Receptor Resistance, etc. You make a very good point in that the "normal range" has decreased...

EDIT: I now believe simply waiting it out will allow your elevated E symptoms to calm. Or changing the T dose--up or down. To be clear, my mind is open.

We have to remember that we are looking at INDUCED hormone levels. Not baseline levels. That can make things different, from several perspectives. This concept starts at the differences between association and causation, and extends to the observation induced levels must sometimes be higher for...

I appreciate your frustration. Studies which employed laboratory methodology which is now proven to be invalid, or administered drug dosing many times more than anyone would ever use, can not be valid. My only suggestion would be to ask them why they do so. It's important we stick to...

I have edited my posts to change the phrase "Anti-AI Crowd" to simply "those strongly opposed to AI use". My intent was originally just to be descriptive, but I think it sounded a bit pejorative. That is not my intent; rather, to engage in an open presentation of knowledge, thoughts, and...

That is a great experiment, and it shows exactly what we would expect from taking more than 3 times as much of a drug.

Great question. IMPO, no. It appears estrogen a bit above range is actually good for us, so I do not add low dose aromatization inhibition unless it is necessary. "Necessary" means because elevated estrogen symptoms will not go away, and the dose of TRT can not be lowered (because we already...

Those strongly opposed to AI administration are employing studies where invalid estrogen testing and/or dosing protocols averaging at least 7 times a prudent dose were employed as the "evidence-based medicine". In fact, there has never been a study conducted which showed a reasonable dose of an...

All of the above. EDIT: I now believe these symptoms are transient, and if we give them a little time, they calm down.

I don't think there is any question aromatase inhibitors are being over prescribed. This has been Nelson's message here for quite some time. We still do not know if there may be any long term side effects from causing estrogen to rise to two or more times the top of normal range. But we do know...

A Aren't the lozenges meant to be absorbed under the tongue?